Chip Conley interview
Our honored guest Chip Conley, founder and CEO of Joie de Vivre, recently wrote, "What if Forbes magazine were to follow up their cover article featuring the 400 Richest People in the country with a cover story of the 400 Happiest People in the country?"
What a concept! For if you think about it, what is the purpose of wealth if it isn't to make us happy? What good is a number on a screen, pieces of green-printed paper, or a shiny yellow metal that can be exchanged for goods and services if there is no joy in your life? Yes, we all need resources for necessities, but they rarely reflect what many of us actually desire. We want more, even though we are not aware of why it is we do, never really content with what we already have.
This area of interest is something Mr. Conley, a graduate of Stanford University, has been an ardent student of, even naming his own company after a French terminology for "the joy of living," an exultation with an exclamation mark! Sun Tzu advised us that once you know what it is you want to do, and are able to do it, move with full force; half-measures will be insufficient.
Chip Conley's full force has made Joie de Vivre, which started in 1987 from a modest purchase of a seedy motel called The Phoenix, into the second largest boutique hotel company in America. He and his dedicated team currently operate 35 award-winning hotels -- each with its own style and theme, unlike what you see in the major chains -- with over 3000 employees generating $240 million in revenues. Indicative of his business success is their second place ranking in the "Best Places to Work in the Bay Area of 2008" by The San Francisco Business Times.
The definition of success, however, can limit a person as well. You are advised to act a certain way. You are supposed to look the part. Thus, sometimes you are expected to not be yourself. Furthermore, if you allow society to dictate who you are, you can be more unhappy than if you never achieved success at all. This is why many accomplished people run into problems. Luckily, Chip Conley never fell for that trapping, and ironically, continues to be successful, not only in business but in life. No wonder he always has a big smile in every one of his pictures. If you want learn more about his philosophy, check out his three business books.
In the meantime, what a privilege it is to have Mr. Conley with us today for the following interview. Enjoy.
Sonshi.com: In 1987 when you founded your hotel company Joie de Vivre (Joy of Living) you were only 26 years old. Did you have any doubts, especially since you had no prior experience in the hotel and hospitality industry? In other words, what exactly went through your mind at that time, and, if it was a struggle, what helped you break through the initial barrier(s)?
Conley: My struggle was that I really didn't enjoy what I was doing previously (I was a commercial real estate developer and much of my time was spent in adversarial negotiations). So, I saw starting this boutique hotel company as a way to connect with my creative passion. Of course, there were struggles but if you're living your calling, you don't tend to focus on the obstacles. A calling energizes you. A job depletes you.
Sonshi.com: Joie de Vivre is now America's second largest boutique hotel company earning over $200 million annually in revenues. Yet this growth isn't from cloning hotels like so many big chains do; every one of your hotels is different, much like yourself versus your peers. One of the attributes you give yourself is quirky, which isn't a common description of CEOs of large companies. However, quirky is arguably an apt description of brave pioneers and leaders because what's quirky today that works is the norm tomorrow that everyone copies. What methods do you use to stay creative and think beyond the ordinary?
Conley: Visionary leaders don't tend to follow convention. Great leaders visualize the potential in people and opportunities and they actualize this into reality. Part of my role is to look for things that aren't so obvious for most people. That means I occasionally will say or think things that are a little crazy, so it's important that I'm willing to fail or say things that might seem a little unorthodox. I do my best to put my internal editor on hold as much as possible.
Sonshi.com: A while ago you wrote a book called "The Rebel Rules: Daring to be Yourself in Business." Well, you certainly practice what you preach, because you seem so happy being yourself running your business, adding your unique signature in practically everything Joie de Vivre does and represents. However with recent fears that words and actions from CEOs can and often do negatively affect stock prices, many people believe that CEOs should be discreet about what they share to the public, namely their personal lives. But the problem there seems to be more about the CEO's flawed character than simply being transparent. What are your thoughts regarding this issue?
Conley: This could take a few days to respond to. Let me just say that we all have flaws - including CEO's. We tend to pedestalize our leaders and imagine they're infallible but that's just not the case. What's been interesting for me is to see that the transition from being an entrepreneur to a CEO has meant that people have very different impressions of what they expect from me. As an entrepreneur, people can accept (and appreciate) my quirkiness. As a CEO, people think I am supposed to be a bit of a robot. I like to think of myself as the CHO, the Chief Human Officer.
Sonshi.com: Your most recent book is "Peak: How Great Companies Get Their Mojo from Maslow," which in part chronicles Joie de Vivre's rise from the crisis after 9/11 (when the hospitality industry plummeted) using Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs theory. One of the pyramids you adapted for your employees has the following (from bottom to top): money, recognition, and meaning. If the company can somehow show employees the meaning of their work -- i.e., how it affects customers' lives -- they would instantly understand why it's important to do a good job. As a result, managers wouldn't have to manage them as much and they are happier. Makes perfect sense! Why do you think so many companies haven't figured this out, or never bothered to do so?
Conley: Sometimes you learn the most when you're most challenged and that was certainly my situation in the last downturn. We came to realize that all of us - no matter what our role - have lower needs and higher needs. If you can address your employees' lower needs (job security, pay, etc...) such that they're satisfied, you can move many of these employees up the pyramid so that they move from having a job to having a career to having a calling. When someone is living their calling, they're less likely to need supervision because they're internally rather than externally motivated.
Sonshi.com: Maslow thought that businesses can serve as change agents in society, making society better. Such a mindset or concept seems to have been lost with some in the business community when we think about the recent financial disaster caused primarily by excess and greed. What can companies learn from Maslow here?
Conley: In his latter years (he died young at age 62 in 1970), Maslow was primarily focused on how to apply the Hierarchy of Needs from the individual to the collective. I was fortunate enough to read his diaries for the last 10 years of his life and that was his primary obsession...it's part of the reason I've focused on getting his message out there as I'm sort of channeling Abe Maslow as if he'd lived to be much older than 62.
I think the business community is getting clear that we're living in a more transparent world and it's harder to hide your sins. Companies like Wal-Mart saw their stock prices drop (on a relative basis versus their competitors in the first of this decade) due to a drop in their standing or reputation in the eyes of the community. Most importantly, great companies realize that the ultimate differentiator is how do you create loyalty through addressing the higher needs of your key constituents. I'm a big believer in "karmic capitalism," what goes around comes around. If you create a great culture, you'll have happy employees which will lead to loyal customers which will lead to a profitable and sustainable business.
Sonshi.com: We noticed you are not only a leader in business thought but perhaps paradoxically you also seem to us to be an avid learner of the past -- absorbing and synthesizing ideas from earlier thought leaders, such as Abraham Maslow and Herb Kelleher. Even the greatest philosopher of all time, Epictetus, learned from the ideas of Chrysippus and Socrates before him. Great strategists and competitors of today nonetheless learn from Sun Tzu's Art of War, a 2500 year old book. Do you believe there are such things as social standards, universal truths that work with most people, most of the time, and across continents and cultures? If so, would you name a few you found to be true from your experience within and travels outside of the US?
Conley: Yes, Marcus Aurelius, who philosophized 2,500 years ago, has taught me a lot. And, of course, most of the great religions have their teachings from thousands of years ago. Austrian psychologist Viktor Frankl taught me a lot in his book "Man's Search for Meaning" which was about his experience in a concentration camp. His experience could be distilled down to the emotional equation: Despair = Suffering - Meaning. I've discovered all kinds of Emotional Equations (the name of my next book) in studying other wise people like Joy = Love - Fear and Disappointment = Expectations - Reality.
Sonshi.com: Speaking of travels, would you mind sharing with us your recent trip to Bhutan and your thoughts about its gross national happiness measurement. Some Americans might see this measurement as too touchy feely, never aware of their own "pursuit of happiness," which doesn't always correlate with how many products they were able to churn out or consume.
Conley: Bhutan is a fascinating place because it's sort of lost in time in the Himalayas (in fact, it was the role model for the book, "Lost Horizon"), but it's also touched on its borders by two countries that represent 38% of the world's population (China and India). Back in 1972, the 17 year old king of Bhutan suggested that the world's leaders should reconsider their definition of success. Instead of bowing to the alter of Gross Domestic Product, the king wondered what would happen if the world's leaders considered a Gross National Happiness index. It took three decades for Bhutan to truly incorporate some metrics and processes for both creating the conditions and measuring happiness in the country, but they're now the world's leader in this field and 40 other countries are studying them.
Nicolas Sarkozy in France just announced that they would likely create a "joie de vivre index" based upon a 300 report written by two Nobel economists about how France could start focusing on how to promote well-being for their countrymen. In sum, most leaders focus on managing what they can measure and it's easier to measure the tangible, but Bhutan and Abe Maslow taught us that what's most valuable in life is the intangible and great leaders look at how they can value and measure things like happiness and meaning.
[End of interview]
What a concept! For if you think about it, what is the purpose of wealth if it isn't to make us happy? What good is a number on a screen, pieces of green-printed paper, or a shiny yellow metal that can be exchanged for goods and services if there is no joy in your life? Yes, we all need resources for necessities, but they rarely reflect what many of us actually desire. We want more, even though we are not aware of why it is we do, never really content with what we already have.
This area of interest is something Mr. Conley, a graduate of Stanford University, has been an ardent student of, even naming his own company after a French terminology for "the joy of living," an exultation with an exclamation mark! Sun Tzu advised us that once you know what it is you want to do, and are able to do it, move with full force; half-measures will be insufficient.
Chip Conley's full force has made Joie de Vivre, which started in 1987 from a modest purchase of a seedy motel called The Phoenix, into the second largest boutique hotel company in America. He and his dedicated team currently operate 35 award-winning hotels -- each with its own style and theme, unlike what you see in the major chains -- with over 3000 employees generating $240 million in revenues. Indicative of his business success is their second place ranking in the "Best Places to Work in the Bay Area of 2008" by The San Francisco Business Times.
The definition of success, however, can limit a person as well. You are advised to act a certain way. You are supposed to look the part. Thus, sometimes you are expected to not be yourself. Furthermore, if you allow society to dictate who you are, you can be more unhappy than if you never achieved success at all. This is why many accomplished people run into problems. Luckily, Chip Conley never fell for that trapping, and ironically, continues to be successful, not only in business but in life. No wonder he always has a big smile in every one of his pictures. If you want learn more about his philosophy, check out his three business books.
In the meantime, what a privilege it is to have Mr. Conley with us today for the following interview. Enjoy.
Sonshi.com: In 1987 when you founded your hotel company Joie de Vivre (Joy of Living) you were only 26 years old. Did you have any doubts, especially since you had no prior experience in the hotel and hospitality industry? In other words, what exactly went through your mind at that time, and, if it was a struggle, what helped you break through the initial barrier(s)?
Conley: My struggle was that I really didn't enjoy what I was doing previously (I was a commercial real estate developer and much of my time was spent in adversarial negotiations). So, I saw starting this boutique hotel company as a way to connect with my creative passion. Of course, there were struggles but if you're living your calling, you don't tend to focus on the obstacles. A calling energizes you. A job depletes you.
Sonshi.com: Joie de Vivre is now America's second largest boutique hotel company earning over $200 million annually in revenues. Yet this growth isn't from cloning hotels like so many big chains do; every one of your hotels is different, much like yourself versus your peers. One of the attributes you give yourself is quirky, which isn't a common description of CEOs of large companies. However, quirky is arguably an apt description of brave pioneers and leaders because what's quirky today that works is the norm tomorrow that everyone copies. What methods do you use to stay creative and think beyond the ordinary?
Conley: Visionary leaders don't tend to follow convention. Great leaders visualize the potential in people and opportunities and they actualize this into reality. Part of my role is to look for things that aren't so obvious for most people. That means I occasionally will say or think things that are a little crazy, so it's important that I'm willing to fail or say things that might seem a little unorthodox. I do my best to put my internal editor on hold as much as possible.
Sonshi.com: A while ago you wrote a book called "The Rebel Rules: Daring to be Yourself in Business." Well, you certainly practice what you preach, because you seem so happy being yourself running your business, adding your unique signature in practically everything Joie de Vivre does and represents. However with recent fears that words and actions from CEOs can and often do negatively affect stock prices, many people believe that CEOs should be discreet about what they share to the public, namely their personal lives. But the problem there seems to be more about the CEO's flawed character than simply being transparent. What are your thoughts regarding this issue?
Conley: This could take a few days to respond to. Let me just say that we all have flaws - including CEO's. We tend to pedestalize our leaders and imagine they're infallible but that's just not the case. What's been interesting for me is to see that the transition from being an entrepreneur to a CEO has meant that people have very different impressions of what they expect from me. As an entrepreneur, people can accept (and appreciate) my quirkiness. As a CEO, people think I am supposed to be a bit of a robot. I like to think of myself as the CHO, the Chief Human Officer.
Sonshi.com: Your most recent book is "Peak: How Great Companies Get Their Mojo from Maslow," which in part chronicles Joie de Vivre's rise from the crisis after 9/11 (when the hospitality industry plummeted) using Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs theory. One of the pyramids you adapted for your employees has the following (from bottom to top): money, recognition, and meaning. If the company can somehow show employees the meaning of their work -- i.e., how it affects customers' lives -- they would instantly understand why it's important to do a good job. As a result, managers wouldn't have to manage them as much and they are happier. Makes perfect sense! Why do you think so many companies haven't figured this out, or never bothered to do so?
Conley: Sometimes you learn the most when you're most challenged and that was certainly my situation in the last downturn. We came to realize that all of us - no matter what our role - have lower needs and higher needs. If you can address your employees' lower needs (job security, pay, etc...) such that they're satisfied, you can move many of these employees up the pyramid so that they move from having a job to having a career to having a calling. When someone is living their calling, they're less likely to need supervision because they're internally rather than externally motivated.
Sonshi.com: Maslow thought that businesses can serve as change agents in society, making society better. Such a mindset or concept seems to have been lost with some in the business community when we think about the recent financial disaster caused primarily by excess and greed. What can companies learn from Maslow here?
Conley: In his latter years (he died young at age 62 in 1970), Maslow was primarily focused on how to apply the Hierarchy of Needs from the individual to the collective. I was fortunate enough to read his diaries for the last 10 years of his life and that was his primary obsession...it's part of the reason I've focused on getting his message out there as I'm sort of channeling Abe Maslow as if he'd lived to be much older than 62.
I think the business community is getting clear that we're living in a more transparent world and it's harder to hide your sins. Companies like Wal-Mart saw their stock prices drop (on a relative basis versus their competitors in the first of this decade) due to a drop in their standing or reputation in the eyes of the community. Most importantly, great companies realize that the ultimate differentiator is how do you create loyalty through addressing the higher needs of your key constituents. I'm a big believer in "karmic capitalism," what goes around comes around. If you create a great culture, you'll have happy employees which will lead to loyal customers which will lead to a profitable and sustainable business.
Sonshi.com: We noticed you are not only a leader in business thought but perhaps paradoxically you also seem to us to be an avid learner of the past -- absorbing and synthesizing ideas from earlier thought leaders, such as Abraham Maslow and Herb Kelleher. Even the greatest philosopher of all time, Epictetus, learned from the ideas of Chrysippus and Socrates before him. Great strategists and competitors of today nonetheless learn from Sun Tzu's Art of War, a 2500 year old book. Do you believe there are such things as social standards, universal truths that work with most people, most of the time, and across continents and cultures? If so, would you name a few you found to be true from your experience within and travels outside of the US?
Conley: Yes, Marcus Aurelius, who philosophized 2,500 years ago, has taught me a lot. And, of course, most of the great religions have their teachings from thousands of years ago. Austrian psychologist Viktor Frankl taught me a lot in his book "Man's Search for Meaning" which was about his experience in a concentration camp. His experience could be distilled down to the emotional equation: Despair = Suffering - Meaning. I've discovered all kinds of Emotional Equations (the name of my next book) in studying other wise people like Joy = Love - Fear and Disappointment = Expectations - Reality.
Sonshi.com: Speaking of travels, would you mind sharing with us your recent trip to Bhutan and your thoughts about its gross national happiness measurement. Some Americans might see this measurement as too touchy feely, never aware of their own "pursuit of happiness," which doesn't always correlate with how many products they were able to churn out or consume.
Conley: Bhutan is a fascinating place because it's sort of lost in time in the Himalayas (in fact, it was the role model for the book, "Lost Horizon"), but it's also touched on its borders by two countries that represent 38% of the world's population (China and India). Back in 1972, the 17 year old king of Bhutan suggested that the world's leaders should reconsider their definition of success. Instead of bowing to the alter of Gross Domestic Product, the king wondered what would happen if the world's leaders considered a Gross National Happiness index. It took three decades for Bhutan to truly incorporate some metrics and processes for both creating the conditions and measuring happiness in the country, but they're now the world's leader in this field and 40 other countries are studying them.
Nicolas Sarkozy in France just announced that they would likely create a "joie de vivre index" based upon a 300 report written by two Nobel economists about how France could start focusing on how to promote well-being for their countrymen. In sum, most leaders focus on managing what they can measure and it's easier to measure the tangible, but Bhutan and Abe Maslow taught us that what's most valuable in life is the intangible and great leaders look at how they can value and measure things like happiness and meaning.
[End of interview]