David Apostolico interview
The World Series of Poker, the World Poker Tour, Johnny Chan, Scotty Nguyen, Doyle Brunson, and Chris Moneymaker. They are the events and personalities of a card game that has entered pop culture with full force. The pay out is substantial; the winner of the last World Series of Poker received $7.5 million. Million dollar prizes at major poker events now seem commonplace.
So what should you read to win at this game of strategy? The Art of War of course. But Sonshi.com was hardly the place to go -- until now. Our guest, David Apostolico, is perhaps the best known writer on poker strategy, and is author ofTournament Poker and The Art of War, which incorporates the time-honored philosophies of Sun Tzu. He is also the author of the Machiavellian Poker Strategy and the Pocket Idiot’s Guide to Tournament Poker.
David Apostolico has been playing poker for over 25 years. He plays poker on every level from home games to top tournaments with the best professionals in the world, including events on the Professional Poker Tour. Apostolico looks to the great strategists of the past to help players develop the proper attitude and mind-set to be successful at the poker table.
Mr. Apostolico received his J.D., with honors, from the University of North Carolina School of Law in 1988. Upon graduation, he went to work for the Wall Street law firm of Winthrop, Stimson, Putnam & Roberts where he spent a number of years specializing in mergers and acquisitions. During his legal career, he has found the principles he learned at the poker table to be enormously useful in his negotiations on behalf of clients large and small from multi-billion-dollar corporations to family businesses.
Currently, Apostolico lives with his family outside of Philadelphia, where he practices corporate law and plays competitive poker whenever he gets the opportunity.
Below is our interview with David Apostolico. Enjoy!
Sonshi.com: How did your book “Tournament Poker & The Art Of War” come about? For example, what gave you the idea and why did you think it would be useful for poker players?
Apostolico: I am a corporate lawyer by trade and I started my career back in the 80's at a Wall Street law firm. My first week on the job, one of the senior partners took me aside and told me that the two books every attorney needs to know are The Art of War by Sun Tzu and The Prince by Machiavelli. I read them both with a critical eye and found them enormously helpful in negotiations.
When I first started playing tournament poker, I hit a brick wall in my progress. I re-read The Art of War and realized its potential impact. However, I also realized that it would have its biggest impact on no limit play where you are not limited in how much power you can unleash at any time. Poker and writing were my two biggest hobbies so writing Tournament Poker and The Art of War was a natural fusion of those two hobbies.
Sonshi.com: Of the 10 principles discussed in the book, would you name a few that you personally use the most in tournament play?
Apostolico: "Know your enemy and know yourself" is the overriding principle. Everything else flows from your capacity to master this principle. In tournament play, the action is forced by increasing blinds and antes. Thus, you don't have the luxury of waiting all day for good cards.
In order to survive and accumulate chips, you must take calculated risks. Understanding your opponents becomes critical in picking those spots. That's only half the battle, though. You have to know your own capabilities and how your opponents are perceiving you. Once you can accomplish that, the game will just open up and the other principles will be easier to accomplish.
Sonshi.com: Sun Tzu said, “Those skilled in warfare make themselves invincible and then wait for the enemy to become vulnerable.” It seems Sun Tzu would discourage bluffs. What do you think?
Apostolico: Sun Tzu would certainly discourage foolish bluffs. He would cherish deception, though. Poker is much more about deception than bluffing. That is, it's just as important to induce your opponent to play when you have a strong hand as it is to induce him to fold when you are weak. In order to accomplish these things, you have to know your opponent and determine his likely hand (as well as keeping him from determining your hand).
The ideal situation is to build up a big chip stack to make yourself invincible ("those skilled in warfare make themselves invincible..."). However, the cards will not always cooperate and you don't have the luxury of time in tournament poker. That's when you need to attack your opponent when you believe he is weak regardless of what cards you have ("...wait for the enemy to become vulnerable.")
Sonshi.com: What is your most memorable hand? Please describe the strategy you employed against your opponent(s).
Apostolico: My most memorable hand was a few years back when I was playing a single table tournament. We started with ten people and it was winner take all. When we got down to two people, I asked my opponent if he wanted to split the money. We had about the same amount of chips and the only reason I asked him was because I wanted to go play in another game. I felt confident that I was the superior player.
To my surprise, he turned me down. A few hands later, I caught him bluffing when he moved in all of his chips. Something he had done earlier in the tournament when he had a strong hand convinced me that he was weak here. I only had a small pair but I knew it was the best hand and I called. As much as I try to keep the emotional element out of my play, I'm only human and I took satisfaction in winning this particular game.
Sonshi.com: With the recent popularity of poker on television with celebrities not unlike movie stars -- Johnny Chan and Scotty Nguyen are our favorites -- are you concerned about gambling addiction among young people? What can parents do to prevent this potential problem?
Apostolico: Sure, it's a concern. Addiction of any kind can be so destructive that it is extremely important for parents to monitor their children's activities. The great thing about tournament poker is that it can be played for small stakes and you know ahead of time exactly how much it's going to cost you. I think it's a wonderful activity for a group of high school kids to stay indoors on a Friday night and play a no limit hold 'em tournament for the price of going to the movies.
A lot can be learned as there is so much math and psychology involved. But if a child is losing more than he can afford, borrowing money to play, playing on the internet or neglecting his or her studies, then there is a problem. There will always be a small percentage of people who will get addicted to something once exposed to it. That's an extremely unfortunate by-product of what can otherwise be a challenging and entertaining activity. The only answer is that parents have to be involved and monitor their children's activities.
Sonshi.com: In tournaments, what’s with the sunglasses on some players? Do you think they help?
Apostolico: If I was czar of poker, I would outlaw sunglasses at the table. Not that I find they give a player an edge. The ironic thing is that I think a lot of players use them as a crutch and don't realize that they are giving off a lot of tells through their body language and betting patterns. Poker is meant to be played face to face and no one should be allowed to hide.
Sonshi.com: Last September, you published “Machiavellian Poker Strategy: How to Play Like a Prince and Rule the Poker Table.” Would you tell us more about it?
Apostolico: Sure. Poker is such a psychological game and I think players greatly underestimate the transformation they need to make when they enter the poker room. In our every day civilian lives we have certain guidelines and ethics to follow. Poker may be the only arena (with the possible exception of politics) where true Machiavellian strategy can be applied. That is deception is not only accepted, it's expected.
From the day we are born, we are taught to share and compromise and get along with others. That's a good thing. At the poker table, you want to throw that all out the window except for the part of getting along with others. You don't want your opponents to know how ruthless you are playing. If you stepped into a boxing ring, you would know you have to fight or you would get hurt really badly. At the poker table, there are nine other players doing everything in their power to take your money. You can't forget that and my books teach you how to develop the proper mindset to succeed.
[End of interview]
So what should you read to win at this game of strategy? The Art of War of course. But Sonshi.com was hardly the place to go -- until now. Our guest, David Apostolico, is perhaps the best known writer on poker strategy, and is author ofTournament Poker and The Art of War, which incorporates the time-honored philosophies of Sun Tzu. He is also the author of the Machiavellian Poker Strategy and the Pocket Idiot’s Guide to Tournament Poker.
David Apostolico has been playing poker for over 25 years. He plays poker on every level from home games to top tournaments with the best professionals in the world, including events on the Professional Poker Tour. Apostolico looks to the great strategists of the past to help players develop the proper attitude and mind-set to be successful at the poker table.
Mr. Apostolico received his J.D., with honors, from the University of North Carolina School of Law in 1988. Upon graduation, he went to work for the Wall Street law firm of Winthrop, Stimson, Putnam & Roberts where he spent a number of years specializing in mergers and acquisitions. During his legal career, he has found the principles he learned at the poker table to be enormously useful in his negotiations on behalf of clients large and small from multi-billion-dollar corporations to family businesses.
Currently, Apostolico lives with his family outside of Philadelphia, where he practices corporate law and plays competitive poker whenever he gets the opportunity.
Below is our interview with David Apostolico. Enjoy!
Sonshi.com: How did your book “Tournament Poker & The Art Of War” come about? For example, what gave you the idea and why did you think it would be useful for poker players?
Apostolico: I am a corporate lawyer by trade and I started my career back in the 80's at a Wall Street law firm. My first week on the job, one of the senior partners took me aside and told me that the two books every attorney needs to know are The Art of War by Sun Tzu and The Prince by Machiavelli. I read them both with a critical eye and found them enormously helpful in negotiations.
When I first started playing tournament poker, I hit a brick wall in my progress. I re-read The Art of War and realized its potential impact. However, I also realized that it would have its biggest impact on no limit play where you are not limited in how much power you can unleash at any time. Poker and writing were my two biggest hobbies so writing Tournament Poker and The Art of War was a natural fusion of those two hobbies.
Sonshi.com: Of the 10 principles discussed in the book, would you name a few that you personally use the most in tournament play?
Apostolico: "Know your enemy and know yourself" is the overriding principle. Everything else flows from your capacity to master this principle. In tournament play, the action is forced by increasing blinds and antes. Thus, you don't have the luxury of waiting all day for good cards.
In order to survive and accumulate chips, you must take calculated risks. Understanding your opponents becomes critical in picking those spots. That's only half the battle, though. You have to know your own capabilities and how your opponents are perceiving you. Once you can accomplish that, the game will just open up and the other principles will be easier to accomplish.
Sonshi.com: Sun Tzu said, “Those skilled in warfare make themselves invincible and then wait for the enemy to become vulnerable.” It seems Sun Tzu would discourage bluffs. What do you think?
Apostolico: Sun Tzu would certainly discourage foolish bluffs. He would cherish deception, though. Poker is much more about deception than bluffing. That is, it's just as important to induce your opponent to play when you have a strong hand as it is to induce him to fold when you are weak. In order to accomplish these things, you have to know your opponent and determine his likely hand (as well as keeping him from determining your hand).
The ideal situation is to build up a big chip stack to make yourself invincible ("those skilled in warfare make themselves invincible..."). However, the cards will not always cooperate and you don't have the luxury of time in tournament poker. That's when you need to attack your opponent when you believe he is weak regardless of what cards you have ("...wait for the enemy to become vulnerable.")
Sonshi.com: What is your most memorable hand? Please describe the strategy you employed against your opponent(s).
Apostolico: My most memorable hand was a few years back when I was playing a single table tournament. We started with ten people and it was winner take all. When we got down to two people, I asked my opponent if he wanted to split the money. We had about the same amount of chips and the only reason I asked him was because I wanted to go play in another game. I felt confident that I was the superior player.
To my surprise, he turned me down. A few hands later, I caught him bluffing when he moved in all of his chips. Something he had done earlier in the tournament when he had a strong hand convinced me that he was weak here. I only had a small pair but I knew it was the best hand and I called. As much as I try to keep the emotional element out of my play, I'm only human and I took satisfaction in winning this particular game.
Sonshi.com: With the recent popularity of poker on television with celebrities not unlike movie stars -- Johnny Chan and Scotty Nguyen are our favorites -- are you concerned about gambling addiction among young people? What can parents do to prevent this potential problem?
Apostolico: Sure, it's a concern. Addiction of any kind can be so destructive that it is extremely important for parents to monitor their children's activities. The great thing about tournament poker is that it can be played for small stakes and you know ahead of time exactly how much it's going to cost you. I think it's a wonderful activity for a group of high school kids to stay indoors on a Friday night and play a no limit hold 'em tournament for the price of going to the movies.
A lot can be learned as there is so much math and psychology involved. But if a child is losing more than he can afford, borrowing money to play, playing on the internet or neglecting his or her studies, then there is a problem. There will always be a small percentage of people who will get addicted to something once exposed to it. That's an extremely unfortunate by-product of what can otherwise be a challenging and entertaining activity. The only answer is that parents have to be involved and monitor their children's activities.
Sonshi.com: In tournaments, what’s with the sunglasses on some players? Do you think they help?
Apostolico: If I was czar of poker, I would outlaw sunglasses at the table. Not that I find they give a player an edge. The ironic thing is that I think a lot of players use them as a crutch and don't realize that they are giving off a lot of tells through their body language and betting patterns. Poker is meant to be played face to face and no one should be allowed to hide.
Sonshi.com: Last September, you published “Machiavellian Poker Strategy: How to Play Like a Prince and Rule the Poker Table.” Would you tell us more about it?
Apostolico: Sure. Poker is such a psychological game and I think players greatly underestimate the transformation they need to make when they enter the poker room. In our every day civilian lives we have certain guidelines and ethics to follow. Poker may be the only arena (with the possible exception of politics) where true Machiavellian strategy can be applied. That is deception is not only accepted, it's expected.
From the day we are born, we are taught to share and compromise and get along with others. That's a good thing. At the poker table, you want to throw that all out the window except for the part of getting along with others. You don't want your opponents to know how ruthless you are playing. If you stepped into a boxing ring, you would know you have to fight or you would get hurt really badly. At the poker table, there are nine other players doing everything in their power to take your money. You can't forget that and my books teach you how to develop the proper mindset to succeed.
[End of interview]