Donald Krause interview
There are numerous versions of The Art of War but you will find only one version that directly renders the treatise's military concepts into business terms. If you are aware of the major Art of Wars available in the last 10 years, you know that book is none other than Donald Krause's The Art of War for Executives. It has been published worldwide in English and has been translated into more than 10 foreign languages. The Art of War for Executives earned a place on the Wall Street Journal’s bestseller list in August 1999.
Donald Krause provides consulting services and writes books in competitive strategy implementation and leadership development. His major clients have included some of the largest and most influential organizations in the United states and Canada, most notably Walt Disney Corporation, Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railroad, Canadian Pacific Railroad, CSX Transportation, and the Association of American Railroads. Mr. Krause has also testified before the United States Congress as an expert witness on transportation industry management issues.
He received an MBA, with distinction, from Babcock Graduate School of Management at Wake Forest University, Winston-Salem, NC. In addition to 25 years of diverse business experience with Fortune 500 companies, smaller businesses, health care organizations, the US General Accounting Office (GAO), and his own firm, Mr. Krause is a seasoned lecturer and educator. He was an Assistant Professor of Management at The University of Michigan for five years, specializing in cost and managerial accounting. He was voted educator of the year for 1999 at Robert Morris College in Chicago, IL.
His second book, The Way of the Leader, continues a multi-volume series on management and leadership. It was printed in early 1997. The third book in the series, Musashi's Book of Five Rings for Executives, was released in Fall 1999.
Below is our interview with Donald Krause. Enjoy!
Sonshi.com: When was the first time you read The Art of War, and what did you like about it?
Krause: The first Art of War translation I read was General Griffith’s sometime in the early 80’s. From the very first chapter, I was intrigued with the multi-layered subtlety of the material. Sun Tzu can be read and applied at many levels and for many purposes. When I went to graduate school in 1975, this type of book was not even considered as appropriate reading for graduate business students. I was amazed at this, after studying the book. I felt the concepts and ideas presented would provide anyone with the ability to gain an advantage in competition. As a result, I became determined to gain a thorough understanding of the book.
I might add that I am still at it. The ideas presented in the book are so challenging that I find myself learning something new every time I read a different translation. The wonderful thing about The Art of War is that its wisdom is virtually inexhaustible.
Sonshi.com: Your book, The Art of War for Executives, was published in 1995 (a revised version was published in 2005) and is the first to directly translate the 13 chapters of into readable business text. For the first time, the reader does not need to mentally interpret each military concept into a business concept. What gave you the idea and how did it come about?
Krause: The book which really got me interested in Sun Tzu as a business tool was James Clavell’s novel, Noble House. It was obvious that people in the Far East (at least in Clavell’s conception of it) used the principles of The Art of War as a pattern for their competitive thinking.
I saw nothing like this in Western business literature. That is, I did not see a succinct set of tested, proven principles which could be applied across a wide range of business and personal situations in order to bring about one’s desired results. The problems I encountered were associated translating and interpreting Chinese idiom and history. Even though the translations I used (Griffith, Cleary, Sawyer, Clavell, and others) were excellent, they were not presented in business terms. I began keeping a set of personal note cards. When traveling, in the hotel room at night, I would take one passage from The Art of War and rewrite it so I could understand and use it.
In 1994, I decided to write a book on leadership based Confucian analects. I wrote a book proposal and found an agent. That book idea was soundly rejected, at the time, by the publishing world (although the idea was later published as The Way of the Leader in 1997, it is now out of print.) My agent asked me if I had any other ideas. I told her about the note cards I had been keeping for several years. She suggested I write a proposal, the result of which was The Art of War for Executives published some six months later.
Sonshi.com: How did you interpret some of the perhaps more morally challenging concepts like fire attacks, spies, and deception?
Krause: Spying and deception I felt were as applicable to today’s business world as they were in Sun Tzu’s day and, for that matter, every day before or since. I feel strongly that, to succeed, one must use the tools at his disposal. Spying on (including using counteragents and moles) and deceiving your opponents has no moral dimension. These are necessary activities in order to win.
At the risk of being disagreed with, I believe that people whose scruples do not include spying and appropriate levels of deception (in contrast to being a boldfaced liar whether it is required by circumstances or not. To quote an ancient saying, ‘One man’s lie is another man’s philosophy.’) will not be very successful in business or politics (which are the same thing at higher levels).
Fire attacks I correlated with attacks on reputation and I still feel this is a good parallel. I have noted over the years that personal attacks are frequently used in business situations when more logical methods might fail. The person using the personal attack tactic is usually the one operating from the weaker position. Personal attacks are particularly effective in environments where performance is subordinated to personality. Further, I have found that Sun Tzu’s description of the ideal circumstances for a personal attack, as I interpreted the fire attack section, work excellently in real life.
Sonshi.com: You also wrote The Book of Five Rings for Executives. From your 30 years of experience in a variety of companies and organizations, what would you guess is the percentage of American executives who have heard of Art of War and Five Rings (Asian works)? What percentage tries to understand them and actually apply their concepts?
Krause: Most American executives have a passing familiarity with Sun Tzu. However, I have sold more total copies of The Art of War for Executives in foreign markets than in the US. I believe, on the other hand, that an increasing number of individuals and companies are becoming interested in the concepts presented by Sun Tzu. Further, many popular TV programs are mentioning the book (most notable I think is The Sopranos).
Sonshi.com: As American companies are competing in an increasingly global environment, would you expect Sun Tzu’s Art of War to be more applicable and thus more valuable than ever?
Krause: I think the popularity of the book will continue to increase as the world community shrinks in size and increases in complexity, particularly as China becomes a bigger and bigger force in world economic balance. Because so much of what could be accomplished in Six Sigma and other quality improvement initiatives is based on understanding the underlying philosophy presented in The Art of War, the material has become critical to succeeding in global business.
Sonshi.com: Sun Tzu talks about the qualities of a general and the faults of a general. What do you think are the main qualities of a leader in any company or organization?
Krause: In place of the five qualities of the general noted by Sun Tzu, I developed what I call the SPARKLE qualities of the leadership character and the HEART qualities of leadership environment. SPARKLE and associated acronyms are part of the Sun Tzu Pyramid of Profit (copyrighted).
I believe the set of acronyms in this diagram provides the student of Sun Tzu, as it may be applied to business, with a convenient “scaffold” for attaching more advanced concepts and organizing, at least at first, the study of Sun Tzu’s principles.
Sonshi.com: Please share with our readers your concept of “laddership.” What it means and why it is important.
Krause: I created the term “laddership” to incorporate several important aspects of leadership into one word. Specifically, “laddership” combines loyalty, respect, order, cooperation and commitment, and communication into one word.
To explain, imagine for a moment you are a warrior in ancient times. You are in charge of a squad of people who carry a ladder which is to be set up against the side of a castle wall during an attack. You and your men are tasked with running across an open field carrying a ladder, placing it against the wall, climbing up the ladder, and then killing the defenders at the top. All without getting killed yourself.
Imagine also the type of team effort which must go into carrying a ladder at a gallop across an open field of fire, placing it properly against the wall so it does not fall over, climbing up the ladder in face of enemy defensive activities, and then having the energy and discipline to triumph at the top. Quite a challenge I would think!
Without leadership which encourages loyalty to the group purpose and chain of command; endorses respect for authority with respect for individual contribution; teaches order through prompt, but thoughtful, obedience to direction; instills cooperation and commitment in the face of personal danger; and permits ready communication between group members, absolutely no one is getting up that darned ladder. (For what it is worth, I learned about these things in Marine Corps boot camp.) If a leader’s character does not include complete acceptance and enthusiastic utilization of “laddership”, that leader will fail when times get tough.
You will note that I changed the word “laddership” to “loyalty” in question #6 above. This is because several reviewers of this material were confused by “laddership.” I still believe that “laddership” encompasses more of what Sun Tzu would have wanted.
[End of interview]
Donald Krause provides consulting services and writes books in competitive strategy implementation and leadership development. His major clients have included some of the largest and most influential organizations in the United states and Canada, most notably Walt Disney Corporation, Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railroad, Canadian Pacific Railroad, CSX Transportation, and the Association of American Railroads. Mr. Krause has also testified before the United States Congress as an expert witness on transportation industry management issues.
He received an MBA, with distinction, from Babcock Graduate School of Management at Wake Forest University, Winston-Salem, NC. In addition to 25 years of diverse business experience with Fortune 500 companies, smaller businesses, health care organizations, the US General Accounting Office (GAO), and his own firm, Mr. Krause is a seasoned lecturer and educator. He was an Assistant Professor of Management at The University of Michigan for five years, specializing in cost and managerial accounting. He was voted educator of the year for 1999 at Robert Morris College in Chicago, IL.
His second book, The Way of the Leader, continues a multi-volume series on management and leadership. It was printed in early 1997. The third book in the series, Musashi's Book of Five Rings for Executives, was released in Fall 1999.
Below is our interview with Donald Krause. Enjoy!
Sonshi.com: When was the first time you read The Art of War, and what did you like about it?
Krause: The first Art of War translation I read was General Griffith’s sometime in the early 80’s. From the very first chapter, I was intrigued with the multi-layered subtlety of the material. Sun Tzu can be read and applied at many levels and for many purposes. When I went to graduate school in 1975, this type of book was not even considered as appropriate reading for graduate business students. I was amazed at this, after studying the book. I felt the concepts and ideas presented would provide anyone with the ability to gain an advantage in competition. As a result, I became determined to gain a thorough understanding of the book.
I might add that I am still at it. The ideas presented in the book are so challenging that I find myself learning something new every time I read a different translation. The wonderful thing about The Art of War is that its wisdom is virtually inexhaustible.
Sonshi.com: Your book, The Art of War for Executives, was published in 1995 (a revised version was published in 2005) and is the first to directly translate the 13 chapters of into readable business text. For the first time, the reader does not need to mentally interpret each military concept into a business concept. What gave you the idea and how did it come about?
Krause: The book which really got me interested in Sun Tzu as a business tool was James Clavell’s novel, Noble House. It was obvious that people in the Far East (at least in Clavell’s conception of it) used the principles of The Art of War as a pattern for their competitive thinking.
I saw nothing like this in Western business literature. That is, I did not see a succinct set of tested, proven principles which could be applied across a wide range of business and personal situations in order to bring about one’s desired results. The problems I encountered were associated translating and interpreting Chinese idiom and history. Even though the translations I used (Griffith, Cleary, Sawyer, Clavell, and others) were excellent, they were not presented in business terms. I began keeping a set of personal note cards. When traveling, in the hotel room at night, I would take one passage from The Art of War and rewrite it so I could understand and use it.
In 1994, I decided to write a book on leadership based Confucian analects. I wrote a book proposal and found an agent. That book idea was soundly rejected, at the time, by the publishing world (although the idea was later published as The Way of the Leader in 1997, it is now out of print.) My agent asked me if I had any other ideas. I told her about the note cards I had been keeping for several years. She suggested I write a proposal, the result of which was The Art of War for Executives published some six months later.
Sonshi.com: How did you interpret some of the perhaps more morally challenging concepts like fire attacks, spies, and deception?
Krause: Spying and deception I felt were as applicable to today’s business world as they were in Sun Tzu’s day and, for that matter, every day before or since. I feel strongly that, to succeed, one must use the tools at his disposal. Spying on (including using counteragents and moles) and deceiving your opponents has no moral dimension. These are necessary activities in order to win.
At the risk of being disagreed with, I believe that people whose scruples do not include spying and appropriate levels of deception (in contrast to being a boldfaced liar whether it is required by circumstances or not. To quote an ancient saying, ‘One man’s lie is another man’s philosophy.’) will not be very successful in business or politics (which are the same thing at higher levels).
Fire attacks I correlated with attacks on reputation and I still feel this is a good parallel. I have noted over the years that personal attacks are frequently used in business situations when more logical methods might fail. The person using the personal attack tactic is usually the one operating from the weaker position. Personal attacks are particularly effective in environments where performance is subordinated to personality. Further, I have found that Sun Tzu’s description of the ideal circumstances for a personal attack, as I interpreted the fire attack section, work excellently in real life.
Sonshi.com: You also wrote The Book of Five Rings for Executives. From your 30 years of experience in a variety of companies and organizations, what would you guess is the percentage of American executives who have heard of Art of War and Five Rings (Asian works)? What percentage tries to understand them and actually apply their concepts?
Krause: Most American executives have a passing familiarity with Sun Tzu. However, I have sold more total copies of The Art of War for Executives in foreign markets than in the US. I believe, on the other hand, that an increasing number of individuals and companies are becoming interested in the concepts presented by Sun Tzu. Further, many popular TV programs are mentioning the book (most notable I think is The Sopranos).
Sonshi.com: As American companies are competing in an increasingly global environment, would you expect Sun Tzu’s Art of War to be more applicable and thus more valuable than ever?
Krause: I think the popularity of the book will continue to increase as the world community shrinks in size and increases in complexity, particularly as China becomes a bigger and bigger force in world economic balance. Because so much of what could be accomplished in Six Sigma and other quality improvement initiatives is based on understanding the underlying philosophy presented in The Art of War, the material has become critical to succeeding in global business.
Sonshi.com: Sun Tzu talks about the qualities of a general and the faults of a general. What do you think are the main qualities of a leader in any company or organization?
Krause: In place of the five qualities of the general noted by Sun Tzu, I developed what I call the SPARKLE qualities of the leadership character and the HEART qualities of leadership environment. SPARKLE and associated acronyms are part of the Sun Tzu Pyramid of Profit (copyrighted).
I believe the set of acronyms in this diagram provides the student of Sun Tzu, as it may be applied to business, with a convenient “scaffold” for attaching more advanced concepts and organizing, at least at first, the study of Sun Tzu’s principles.
Sonshi.com: Please share with our readers your concept of “laddership.” What it means and why it is important.
Krause: I created the term “laddership” to incorporate several important aspects of leadership into one word. Specifically, “laddership” combines loyalty, respect, order, cooperation and commitment, and communication into one word.
To explain, imagine for a moment you are a warrior in ancient times. You are in charge of a squad of people who carry a ladder which is to be set up against the side of a castle wall during an attack. You and your men are tasked with running across an open field carrying a ladder, placing it against the wall, climbing up the ladder, and then killing the defenders at the top. All without getting killed yourself.
Imagine also the type of team effort which must go into carrying a ladder at a gallop across an open field of fire, placing it properly against the wall so it does not fall over, climbing up the ladder in face of enemy defensive activities, and then having the energy and discipline to triumph at the top. Quite a challenge I would think!
Without leadership which encourages loyalty to the group purpose and chain of command; endorses respect for authority with respect for individual contribution; teaches order through prompt, but thoughtful, obedience to direction; instills cooperation and commitment in the face of personal danger; and permits ready communication between group members, absolutely no one is getting up that darned ladder. (For what it is worth, I learned about these things in Marine Corps boot camp.) If a leader’s character does not include complete acceptance and enthusiastic utilization of “laddership”, that leader will fail when times get tough.
You will note that I changed the word “laddership” to “loyalty” in question #6 above. This is because several reviewers of this material were confused by “laddership.” I still believe that “laddership” encompasses more of what Sun Tzu would have wanted.
[End of interview]