George Teschner interview
One of the great truths we at Sonshi.com have found over the years is that genius can be found anywhere. The discovery of Dr. George Teschner was by accident -- we were notified by a member of an upcoming Sun Tzu public discussion at Christopher Newport University (formerly a branch of The College of William and Mary) located in Newport News, Virginia. As many of you know, the Hampton Roads area has some of the largest military installations in the US: Norfolk Naval Base, Langley Air Force Base, and Fort Monroe. It is also home to thousands of military personnel.
Dr. George Teschner is Professor and Chair of the Department of Philosophy and Religious Studies at Christopher Newport University. His areas of specialization include Comparative Philosophy, Existentialism, Philosophy of Technology, and Postmodernism. He teaches a wide range of courses, such as Philosophy of the Holocaust, Chinese Philosophy, Philosophy in the New Age, Philosophy in the Movies. He has written journal articles in the area of Phenomenology and on such works as the Bhagavad Gita, the Surangama Sutra, and the Yoga Vasistha.
Get ready for a treat as you discover Teschner for yourself. "All that appears at rest is really an equilibrium of competing forces...the terms 'peace' and 'war' are merely artifacts of language. The reality is both and neither peace and war, but certainly not peace to the exclusion of war." Read other Teschnerian insights in our interview below:
Sonshi.com: When we were notified you will be doing a public discussion of Sun Tzu's Art of War as part of the annual Christopher Newport University's Keith McLoughland Great Books Series, we had to contact you. Please tell us more about the event and what led you to choose the book.
Teschner: Our Great Books Series includes both Western and non-Western classics. Among non-Western works that we have studied have been the Analects of Confucius, The Great Learning, the Tao Te Ching, and the Chuang Tzu. The choice of The Art of War was the result of students expressing interest in studying the work as well as my feeling that it was an aspect of ancient Chinese thought that needed to complement the Confucian and Taoist material.
Sonshi.com: As Professor and Chair of the Department of Philosophy and Religious Studies at Christopher Newport University, do you find the faculty and students receptive to Sun Tzu's Art of War? Classes and workshops on Sun Tzu are very popular in Asia and so we are curious if it is also the case in Newport News, Virginia.
Teschner: There is a palpable need on the part of faculty and students for understanding how to deal effectively with various forms of conflict such as in competition, contest, debate, dispute, disagreement, when common ground cannot be found and reconciliation is not possible. The sort of conflict that Sun Tzu is examining is the kind that occurs when the rules of civil order are suspended and such actions as deception; secrecy, attacking weaknesses, and seduction become the norm. To treat such the collapse of civil order as an aberration is to ignore human history for which war, as the suspension of civil law, is much more the rule than the exception.
Sonshi.com: In comparison with other philosophers throughout world history, where do you think Sun Tzu ranks in terms of influence on the world?
Teschner: At least in terms of Chinese philosophy and culture, the Confucian and Taoist philosophers have had much greater influence on Chinese thought and are better known to the West. However, the thought that we find in The Art of War must necessarily remain in the shadow of these other traditions, for it confronts, in the most realistic manner, how to act when there is a breakdown of legal and moral standards governing the affairs between men that these other systems describe. It is difficult to acknowledge that war is normal and that it is not merely a fall from what is true and good.
Sonshi.com: What idea proposed in The Art of War do you find most intriguing?
Teschner: The most intriguing idea in The Art of War and the one which I believe is a key to understanding the entire work is the idea stated in Chapter Three on the topic of strategy, namely, that the highest excellence consists in breaking and subduing the enemy without fighting. This is the technology of war brought to a state of supreme efficiency and effectiveness. It is the paradoxical point at which war and peace are one. This is not peace understand as the absence of conflict but peace understood as a state of equilibrium between forces that are in tension. For such a one skilled in the art of war, Chapter 6 tells us that victories bring neither reputation for wisdom nor credit for courage, because the fight is won with ease. No one we are told is praised for great strength if they lift an autumn leaf. These notions bring The Art of War close to the Tao Te Ching where Lao Tzu states in Chapter 17 that,
The leader who is a sage is hardly known to those who follow him. Because his actions are wordless, the people say, "We did it".
This effortless way is the skill of Cook Ting in the writings of Chuang Tzu and is the essence of the martial art of Aikido. War for Sun Tzu is more a matter of the quiet skill of a fine craftsman than of drama and heroics. All that appears at rest is really an equilibrium of competing forces. The weight of the table that rests on the floor pushes down while the floor pushes up. The table is stationary because the forces are in balance.
Sonshi.com: When we did an interview with Dr. Minford, he expressed his disagreement with The Art of War: "It proposes what is to me an insidiously calculating approach to human relations, one which is directly contrary to many of the fundamental humanistic values that I uphold." Although we disagree with that assessment, we find his point of view refreshing. As a fellow philosopher, is there an idea proposed in The Art of War you find contradictory or simply something you disagree with?
Teschner: I would say that humanistic values that do not include an "insidious calculating approach to human relations" are unrealistic. In Chinese Philosophy the highest of social, psychological and cosmological values is harmony. Harmony, however, is not a simple unity like the sounding of a single note. Harmony contains opposition and difference. Humanistic values that do not include and acknowledge war give only one side of what it means to be human. Chinese thought seeks a balance of opposites, not one side of the opposition to the exclusion of the other. There is no peace without war. To conduct war without fighting, as Sun Tzu describes is to balance the opposites of peace and war. In any case, the terms 'peace' and 'war' are merely artifacts of language. The reality is both and neither peace and war, but certainly not peace to the exclusion of war.
Sonshi.com: From your perspective, do you think Sun Tzu's teachings are generally understood and applied correctly in the modern world?
Teschner: On one hand, the teaching of Sun Tzu is a matter of common sense and anyone would know these principles if they gave these matters careful thought and mindful attention. However, what we ordinarily do is over-theorize and lose calmness and presence of mind when we act. Again, here Taoism is helpful. The Tao Te Ching (Chapter 48) tells us that in the way of knowledge, day by day, something is acquired, and in the way of the Tao, day by day, something is dropped. The kind of understanding of which The Art of War speaks is like the empty spaces of doors and windows without which a building would be useless. Do I think that these teachings are generally understood and applied correctly in the modern world? I think that they have never been and will never be generally understood and applied. They are too subtle and simple.
Sonshi.com: You describe your teaching style as interactive and you strive to have your students so involved in the text that they will remember it many years from now. We agree! Rote memorization can only go so far. Tell us of a time when this type of interaction brought forth something interesting about Sun Tzu.
Teschner: You are never going to learn how to shoot a bow or wield a sword by reading books. You may learn how to eloquently talk about these things, but not how to do them. Doing them requires actual practice where the faculties that learn are the nerves, bones, and muscles. We want to achieve a level of skill where the mind can be put aside. This can only be done through application of principles, that is, practice. My pedagogical technique therefore is to take The Art of War as a metaphor for different kinds of conflict. The two kinds of conflict that I use are rhetorical debate and the martial art of Akeido. All of the concepts in The Art of War such as distinctions between strategy and tactics, timing, attack and retreat, weak and strong points, situation and terrain have their analogies in these two areas. Hopefully applying the principles in The Art of War to these two areas will transfer to other areas as well.
For example, the importance of neither acting too soon nor too late, which is throughout The Art of War, is illustrated in the principle of timing in Akeido. If the opponent comes at you with the thrust of a hand or sword, to move out of the way too soon, allows the opponent to adjust the thrust, to move out of the way too late risks the chance of being hit. To move at precisely the correct moment results in the opponent being unable to readjust and being thrown off balance. This also illustrates the excellence of defeating the enemy without fighting. We also teach argumentation theory in our logic classes which studies the relation between argument and counterargument. In addition to the rules of logical syntax there is semantics, that is, the choice of vocabulary in which to frame the argument and counterargument. This is analogous to the different kinds of terrain discussed in chapter ten of The Art of War. There are rich analogical relations between rhetorical techniques and the principles stated in The Art of War.
[End of interview]
Dr. George Teschner is Professor and Chair of the Department of Philosophy and Religious Studies at Christopher Newport University. His areas of specialization include Comparative Philosophy, Existentialism, Philosophy of Technology, and Postmodernism. He teaches a wide range of courses, such as Philosophy of the Holocaust, Chinese Philosophy, Philosophy in the New Age, Philosophy in the Movies. He has written journal articles in the area of Phenomenology and on such works as the Bhagavad Gita, the Surangama Sutra, and the Yoga Vasistha.
Get ready for a treat as you discover Teschner for yourself. "All that appears at rest is really an equilibrium of competing forces...the terms 'peace' and 'war' are merely artifacts of language. The reality is both and neither peace and war, but certainly not peace to the exclusion of war." Read other Teschnerian insights in our interview below:
Sonshi.com: When we were notified you will be doing a public discussion of Sun Tzu's Art of War as part of the annual Christopher Newport University's Keith McLoughland Great Books Series, we had to contact you. Please tell us more about the event and what led you to choose the book.
Teschner: Our Great Books Series includes both Western and non-Western classics. Among non-Western works that we have studied have been the Analects of Confucius, The Great Learning, the Tao Te Ching, and the Chuang Tzu. The choice of The Art of War was the result of students expressing interest in studying the work as well as my feeling that it was an aspect of ancient Chinese thought that needed to complement the Confucian and Taoist material.
Sonshi.com: As Professor and Chair of the Department of Philosophy and Religious Studies at Christopher Newport University, do you find the faculty and students receptive to Sun Tzu's Art of War? Classes and workshops on Sun Tzu are very popular in Asia and so we are curious if it is also the case in Newport News, Virginia.
Teschner: There is a palpable need on the part of faculty and students for understanding how to deal effectively with various forms of conflict such as in competition, contest, debate, dispute, disagreement, when common ground cannot be found and reconciliation is not possible. The sort of conflict that Sun Tzu is examining is the kind that occurs when the rules of civil order are suspended and such actions as deception; secrecy, attacking weaknesses, and seduction become the norm. To treat such the collapse of civil order as an aberration is to ignore human history for which war, as the suspension of civil law, is much more the rule than the exception.
Sonshi.com: In comparison with other philosophers throughout world history, where do you think Sun Tzu ranks in terms of influence on the world?
Teschner: At least in terms of Chinese philosophy and culture, the Confucian and Taoist philosophers have had much greater influence on Chinese thought and are better known to the West. However, the thought that we find in The Art of War must necessarily remain in the shadow of these other traditions, for it confronts, in the most realistic manner, how to act when there is a breakdown of legal and moral standards governing the affairs between men that these other systems describe. It is difficult to acknowledge that war is normal and that it is not merely a fall from what is true and good.
Sonshi.com: What idea proposed in The Art of War do you find most intriguing?
Teschner: The most intriguing idea in The Art of War and the one which I believe is a key to understanding the entire work is the idea stated in Chapter Three on the topic of strategy, namely, that the highest excellence consists in breaking and subduing the enemy without fighting. This is the technology of war brought to a state of supreme efficiency and effectiveness. It is the paradoxical point at which war and peace are one. This is not peace understand as the absence of conflict but peace understood as a state of equilibrium between forces that are in tension. For such a one skilled in the art of war, Chapter 6 tells us that victories bring neither reputation for wisdom nor credit for courage, because the fight is won with ease. No one we are told is praised for great strength if they lift an autumn leaf. These notions bring The Art of War close to the Tao Te Ching where Lao Tzu states in Chapter 17 that,
The leader who is a sage is hardly known to those who follow him. Because his actions are wordless, the people say, "We did it".
This effortless way is the skill of Cook Ting in the writings of Chuang Tzu and is the essence of the martial art of Aikido. War for Sun Tzu is more a matter of the quiet skill of a fine craftsman than of drama and heroics. All that appears at rest is really an equilibrium of competing forces. The weight of the table that rests on the floor pushes down while the floor pushes up. The table is stationary because the forces are in balance.
Sonshi.com: When we did an interview with Dr. Minford, he expressed his disagreement with The Art of War: "It proposes what is to me an insidiously calculating approach to human relations, one which is directly contrary to many of the fundamental humanistic values that I uphold." Although we disagree with that assessment, we find his point of view refreshing. As a fellow philosopher, is there an idea proposed in The Art of War you find contradictory or simply something you disagree with?
Teschner: I would say that humanistic values that do not include an "insidious calculating approach to human relations" are unrealistic. In Chinese Philosophy the highest of social, psychological and cosmological values is harmony. Harmony, however, is not a simple unity like the sounding of a single note. Harmony contains opposition and difference. Humanistic values that do not include and acknowledge war give only one side of what it means to be human. Chinese thought seeks a balance of opposites, not one side of the opposition to the exclusion of the other. There is no peace without war. To conduct war without fighting, as Sun Tzu describes is to balance the opposites of peace and war. In any case, the terms 'peace' and 'war' are merely artifacts of language. The reality is both and neither peace and war, but certainly not peace to the exclusion of war.
Sonshi.com: From your perspective, do you think Sun Tzu's teachings are generally understood and applied correctly in the modern world?
Teschner: On one hand, the teaching of Sun Tzu is a matter of common sense and anyone would know these principles if they gave these matters careful thought and mindful attention. However, what we ordinarily do is over-theorize and lose calmness and presence of mind when we act. Again, here Taoism is helpful. The Tao Te Ching (Chapter 48) tells us that in the way of knowledge, day by day, something is acquired, and in the way of the Tao, day by day, something is dropped. The kind of understanding of which The Art of War speaks is like the empty spaces of doors and windows without which a building would be useless. Do I think that these teachings are generally understood and applied correctly in the modern world? I think that they have never been and will never be generally understood and applied. They are too subtle and simple.
Sonshi.com: You describe your teaching style as interactive and you strive to have your students so involved in the text that they will remember it many years from now. We agree! Rote memorization can only go so far. Tell us of a time when this type of interaction brought forth something interesting about Sun Tzu.
Teschner: You are never going to learn how to shoot a bow or wield a sword by reading books. You may learn how to eloquently talk about these things, but not how to do them. Doing them requires actual practice where the faculties that learn are the nerves, bones, and muscles. We want to achieve a level of skill where the mind can be put aside. This can only be done through application of principles, that is, practice. My pedagogical technique therefore is to take The Art of War as a metaphor for different kinds of conflict. The two kinds of conflict that I use are rhetorical debate and the martial art of Akeido. All of the concepts in The Art of War such as distinctions between strategy and tactics, timing, attack and retreat, weak and strong points, situation and terrain have their analogies in these two areas. Hopefully applying the principles in The Art of War to these two areas will transfer to other areas as well.
For example, the importance of neither acting too soon nor too late, which is throughout The Art of War, is illustrated in the principle of timing in Akeido. If the opponent comes at you with the thrust of a hand or sword, to move out of the way too soon, allows the opponent to adjust the thrust, to move out of the way too late risks the chance of being hit. To move at precisely the correct moment results in the opponent being unable to readjust and being thrown off balance. This also illustrates the excellence of defeating the enemy without fighting. We also teach argumentation theory in our logic classes which studies the relation between argument and counterargument. In addition to the rules of logical syntax there is semantics, that is, the choice of vocabulary in which to frame the argument and counterargument. This is analogous to the different kinds of terrain discussed in chapter ten of The Art of War. There are rich analogical relations between rhetorical techniques and the principles stated in The Art of War.
[End of interview]