Jason Seiden interview
Self-help and business books are useless. There we said it. The reason? If any one of those books was any help, then readers wouldn't always fall for the latest psychological babble year in and year out in the never-ending search for "the answer."
Furthermore, we don't even know if readers are really seeking for sound advice. Perhaps they want to create and wade in their misery. Sure it's not preferable but it's easy and comfortable. Perhaps, as our guest author and business consultant Jason Seiden suggests, we may actually want to fail! Why else do people sometimes do dumb things they do to themselves?
In the most humorous way, Mr. Seiden, a Wharton and Kellogg graduate, shows us how to shun success like the plague and finally embrace failure and mediocrity in his new book, How to Self-Destruct: Making the Least of What's Left of Your Career. Reverse psychology was never this much fun when our parents tried it on us. Caveat: When you get to the part where you find yourself familiar with and sharing such destructive behavior, your smile may soon disappear.
Learn more about Mr. Seiden and his How to Self-Destruct book at JasonSeiden.com. Below is Sonshi.com's interview with Jason Seiden.
Sonshi.com: Please tell our readers a little about your book "How to Self-Destruct: Making the Least of What’s Left of Your Career." It has quite a fascinating, humorous approach. What prompted you to write it?
Seiden: I wrote the book because I woke up in the middle of the night with an idea in my head and a sense of obligation to act on it. No joke.
Every once in awhile, I get an idea that literally makes me itch with anticipation. Not like “Gee, wouldn’t it be cool if someone did…” but like, “I don’t know why, but I have an oddly strong feeling that I’m supposed to…” The last one I got before How to Self-Destructwas in 2004, when I felt compelled to write a story about a town threatened by, and ultimately decimated by, a faulty dam. Despite the urge to write, I “put the pen down” in October, 2004 for no good reason. I just gave up after 126 pages because I didn’t know where it was going. Less than a year later, watching as New Orleans was flooded by a hurricane that ripped apart its levees, I was stunned by the parallels with what I had written, and I promised myself never to ignore that itch again. So when I woke up a little while later with How to Self-Destruct in my head, the decision to write it—whatever the price, whomever would read it, wherever it went—had already been made.
There are other answers to this question, too. I was struck by how, with all the books on leadership, corporate America wasn’t the idyllic utopia it should have been with all that collective knowledge. I wondered why my clients who had read so many terrific books still needed so much help. (The same wonder got directed at myself, too.) And I struggled mightily with the feeling that all these books on leadership couldn’t all be right… how can everything I read sound good, even though the ideas espoused are often incompatible? And why couldn’t I finish any of them?
These are all reasons I pursued How to Self-Destruct, but ultimately, the real reason is that my gut said, “Do it!”
Sonshi.com: Even though your book didn't specifically say so, your website JasonSeiden.com explicitly caters to Generation X and Y. We're confused because many of your concepts in "How to Self-Destruct" apply to older generations as well.
Seiden: My choice of markets is not meant to imply anything exclusionary; it is simply a function of my feeling that the terrain on the battlefield for younger managers and workers better suits my strengths.
I am the Sesame Street, MTV, Simpsons, Jon Stewart generation. I understand the ennui with rote learning; the need to use technology to do more faster; the constant searching for satirical messages, double entendres, and hidden cultural references, in everything, everywhere. My brain has been trained—like those of my peers—to never stop spinning. I know there is a lot of great developmental content out there, but none tailored to the needs and sensibilities of me and my peers. So I stepped in.
There is another reason I target this market, too, which is equally as important: while older generations will get the material, and many will even appreciate the voice in which it’s delivered, they don’t need this quite as much as Xers and Yers. They had the benefit of learning it while fending for themselves on school playgrounds and during unsupervised, unstructured activities. Today’s young adults never developed the ability to navigate delicate interpersonal situations growing up—an authority figure always stepped in. We didn’t need to figure things out, either; answers were always at our fingertips—in the yellow pages, then at 411, then online. Now we find ourselves needing to learn real leadership skills in real time… and the pressure’s on. The world is fast becoming ours, whether we’re ready or not.
This is the group with whom my style fits best, and where the greatest need is. This is terrain that I understand, and my work with senior executives gives me a distinct advantage. This is where I choose to stand and deliver.
Sonshi.com: You list Sun Tzu's The Art of War as one of the must-read books for any successful professional. What do you find most useful about The Art of War?
Seiden: I love the way it is written. It is ruthless in its simplicity. The message matches the delivery perfectly; even in English it is as much a work of art as it is a guide. The way the book is written was a model for me: get in, make the point, get out.
Also, I love Sun Tzu’s advocating for the judicious use of spies. We talk a lot about how success requires taking nothing for granted, but Sun Tzu lays out exactly what it takes, and forces you to deal with the churn in your stomach as you swallow the ethical implications of spying, and the paradox of being a high integrity leader who nonetheless relies on such despicable tactics. If you think about what it takes to run a network of spies, you really get a sense for how lonely it is at the top. What I took away from the chapter on spies is that if you want to win, you won’t get there by accident, and you won’t get there easily.
Sonshi.com: You teach at The Chicago School of Professional Psychology and earned an MBA from Northwestern. Yet in the book you feel an MBA is not worth the money invested. Can you explain further?
Seiden: For the record, I am a tremendous supporter of education, and I am proud of my degrees and my alma maters. Go to school. Just don’t expect to learn how to think at business school… the MBA is a vocational degree for managers. I think most people miss this, and equate MBA with leadership ability. Big oops. If you don’t already know what you are going to do with the tools you’ll learn, don’t expect to learn in class.
Sonshi.com: One extraordinary aspect of your book is its complete honesty. Too often business authors baby their readers. You didn't. You weren't mean but were certainly straightforward and gave unvarnished advice without coming across as preachy. Can you think of one blunt advice you received in the past that changed your life?
Seiden: “You hold too many grudges.”
When my wife told me to get over my grudges, that was really the turning point for me. There was nothing particularly special about the conversation we were having when she said it, but for some reason, it hit me, and it triggered a process of introspection and change that got me to start taking more and more responsibility for my own successes… and failures. I figured that if I was going to make a living giving others feedback, I had better damn well be able to take it. That was really tough. When you look at someone who for ten years you thought had injured you grievously with the thought of giving up grudges, you end up taking ownership for the problems in the relationship. There’s no place to hide when you do that; it’s a very naked feeling.
What I can tell you is that most of the stuff we read about success is descriptive rather than prescriptive… you can’t follow it to a better you because it speaks to your head, whereas real change takes place in your heart. I know this because my wife’s comment sort of brought this reality crashing down on me.
It really hurt.
And you know what? It still hurts! It’s much easier to say, “I’m trying!” and blame others when you fall short. Owning your mistakes feels weird… you’re never quite sure if you’re doing things right. It feels like that spring day in high school when you found yourself off school property on a random Tuesday, when out of the blue it would dawn on you that maybe there was someplace else you were supposed to be. Even when you’re getting it right, a part of you wonders if there is someplace else you should be, or something different you should be doing. It takes a long time to reach a point of true comfort.
Sonshi.com: You do business consulting. From your experience, what do you see as the most common problem that companies have today that is negatively affecting their performance?
Seiden: The problem starts with something I see happen at the individual level: people make plans that include the words, “if only”.
When I work with someone who is having a problem getting things done, I nearly always play this game: I ask the person, “Assuming for a moment that you are 100% responsible for fixing the problem, regardless of who created the mess and starting with only the resources you have right now, what would your next move be?” Inevitably, we find a course of action that would lead to a better situation and that does not depend on others changing.
The issue that companies make is that instead of helping individuals through this issue, they tend to skip it. Organizations jump straight to competency modeling and skills training… completely missing that personal responsibility is a prerequisite for being able—or willing—to use a skill; the trainees who aren’t taking responsibility for their actions hear about a skill and say, “Wow… let me tell you who really needs to hear this message!” The key to getting individuals to take responsibility isn’t developing their skills, it’s getting them to connect emotionally with their work!
(Doubt your ability to learn without an emotional connection to the material? Try to recall your math textbook from senior year high school. Can you name the title? The chapters? How much information can you recall? Now, recall the music that was popular that year. How many songs can you name? How many can you still sing along with? My guess is that you’ll do a lot better with the music than the math. Why? Because you were emotionally invested. Nothing’s changed. Until training is fun, easy, and relevant at a very core level, no one cares.)
Sonshi.com: You have a date with your wife and kids to go to an important family event planned months in advance. Your boss also tells you that you must stay late to work on a project due the next morning. What should a person wanting to self-destruct do?
Seiden: Self-destructor: go on the date!
For the record, if I’m going to self-destruct, I really need a lot of work. I’m writing this from my home in Chicago here at 11:30 on Sunday night, while my wife and kids are on vacation. I bailed on the trip to get work done and meet the commitments my clients, students, and associates have of me. The kicker? I’m my own boss.
[End of interview]
Furthermore, we don't even know if readers are really seeking for sound advice. Perhaps they want to create and wade in their misery. Sure it's not preferable but it's easy and comfortable. Perhaps, as our guest author and business consultant Jason Seiden suggests, we may actually want to fail! Why else do people sometimes do dumb things they do to themselves?
In the most humorous way, Mr. Seiden, a Wharton and Kellogg graduate, shows us how to shun success like the plague and finally embrace failure and mediocrity in his new book, How to Self-Destruct: Making the Least of What's Left of Your Career. Reverse psychology was never this much fun when our parents tried it on us. Caveat: When you get to the part where you find yourself familiar with and sharing such destructive behavior, your smile may soon disappear.
Learn more about Mr. Seiden and his How to Self-Destruct book at JasonSeiden.com. Below is Sonshi.com's interview with Jason Seiden.
Sonshi.com: Please tell our readers a little about your book "How to Self-Destruct: Making the Least of What’s Left of Your Career." It has quite a fascinating, humorous approach. What prompted you to write it?
Seiden: I wrote the book because I woke up in the middle of the night with an idea in my head and a sense of obligation to act on it. No joke.
Every once in awhile, I get an idea that literally makes me itch with anticipation. Not like “Gee, wouldn’t it be cool if someone did…” but like, “I don’t know why, but I have an oddly strong feeling that I’m supposed to…” The last one I got before How to Self-Destructwas in 2004, when I felt compelled to write a story about a town threatened by, and ultimately decimated by, a faulty dam. Despite the urge to write, I “put the pen down” in October, 2004 for no good reason. I just gave up after 126 pages because I didn’t know where it was going. Less than a year later, watching as New Orleans was flooded by a hurricane that ripped apart its levees, I was stunned by the parallels with what I had written, and I promised myself never to ignore that itch again. So when I woke up a little while later with How to Self-Destruct in my head, the decision to write it—whatever the price, whomever would read it, wherever it went—had already been made.
There are other answers to this question, too. I was struck by how, with all the books on leadership, corporate America wasn’t the idyllic utopia it should have been with all that collective knowledge. I wondered why my clients who had read so many terrific books still needed so much help. (The same wonder got directed at myself, too.) And I struggled mightily with the feeling that all these books on leadership couldn’t all be right… how can everything I read sound good, even though the ideas espoused are often incompatible? And why couldn’t I finish any of them?
These are all reasons I pursued How to Self-Destruct, but ultimately, the real reason is that my gut said, “Do it!”
Sonshi.com: Even though your book didn't specifically say so, your website JasonSeiden.com explicitly caters to Generation X and Y. We're confused because many of your concepts in "How to Self-Destruct" apply to older generations as well.
Seiden: My choice of markets is not meant to imply anything exclusionary; it is simply a function of my feeling that the terrain on the battlefield for younger managers and workers better suits my strengths.
I am the Sesame Street, MTV, Simpsons, Jon Stewart generation. I understand the ennui with rote learning; the need to use technology to do more faster; the constant searching for satirical messages, double entendres, and hidden cultural references, in everything, everywhere. My brain has been trained—like those of my peers—to never stop spinning. I know there is a lot of great developmental content out there, but none tailored to the needs and sensibilities of me and my peers. So I stepped in.
There is another reason I target this market, too, which is equally as important: while older generations will get the material, and many will even appreciate the voice in which it’s delivered, they don’t need this quite as much as Xers and Yers. They had the benefit of learning it while fending for themselves on school playgrounds and during unsupervised, unstructured activities. Today’s young adults never developed the ability to navigate delicate interpersonal situations growing up—an authority figure always stepped in. We didn’t need to figure things out, either; answers were always at our fingertips—in the yellow pages, then at 411, then online. Now we find ourselves needing to learn real leadership skills in real time… and the pressure’s on. The world is fast becoming ours, whether we’re ready or not.
This is the group with whom my style fits best, and where the greatest need is. This is terrain that I understand, and my work with senior executives gives me a distinct advantage. This is where I choose to stand and deliver.
Sonshi.com: You list Sun Tzu's The Art of War as one of the must-read books for any successful professional. What do you find most useful about The Art of War?
Seiden: I love the way it is written. It is ruthless in its simplicity. The message matches the delivery perfectly; even in English it is as much a work of art as it is a guide. The way the book is written was a model for me: get in, make the point, get out.
Also, I love Sun Tzu’s advocating for the judicious use of spies. We talk a lot about how success requires taking nothing for granted, but Sun Tzu lays out exactly what it takes, and forces you to deal with the churn in your stomach as you swallow the ethical implications of spying, and the paradox of being a high integrity leader who nonetheless relies on such despicable tactics. If you think about what it takes to run a network of spies, you really get a sense for how lonely it is at the top. What I took away from the chapter on spies is that if you want to win, you won’t get there by accident, and you won’t get there easily.
Sonshi.com: You teach at The Chicago School of Professional Psychology and earned an MBA from Northwestern. Yet in the book you feel an MBA is not worth the money invested. Can you explain further?
Seiden: For the record, I am a tremendous supporter of education, and I am proud of my degrees and my alma maters. Go to school. Just don’t expect to learn how to think at business school… the MBA is a vocational degree for managers. I think most people miss this, and equate MBA with leadership ability. Big oops. If you don’t already know what you are going to do with the tools you’ll learn, don’t expect to learn in class.
Sonshi.com: One extraordinary aspect of your book is its complete honesty. Too often business authors baby their readers. You didn't. You weren't mean but were certainly straightforward and gave unvarnished advice without coming across as preachy. Can you think of one blunt advice you received in the past that changed your life?
Seiden: “You hold too many grudges.”
When my wife told me to get over my grudges, that was really the turning point for me. There was nothing particularly special about the conversation we were having when she said it, but for some reason, it hit me, and it triggered a process of introspection and change that got me to start taking more and more responsibility for my own successes… and failures. I figured that if I was going to make a living giving others feedback, I had better damn well be able to take it. That was really tough. When you look at someone who for ten years you thought had injured you grievously with the thought of giving up grudges, you end up taking ownership for the problems in the relationship. There’s no place to hide when you do that; it’s a very naked feeling.
What I can tell you is that most of the stuff we read about success is descriptive rather than prescriptive… you can’t follow it to a better you because it speaks to your head, whereas real change takes place in your heart. I know this because my wife’s comment sort of brought this reality crashing down on me.
It really hurt.
And you know what? It still hurts! It’s much easier to say, “I’m trying!” and blame others when you fall short. Owning your mistakes feels weird… you’re never quite sure if you’re doing things right. It feels like that spring day in high school when you found yourself off school property on a random Tuesday, when out of the blue it would dawn on you that maybe there was someplace else you were supposed to be. Even when you’re getting it right, a part of you wonders if there is someplace else you should be, or something different you should be doing. It takes a long time to reach a point of true comfort.
Sonshi.com: You do business consulting. From your experience, what do you see as the most common problem that companies have today that is negatively affecting their performance?
Seiden: The problem starts with something I see happen at the individual level: people make plans that include the words, “if only”.
When I work with someone who is having a problem getting things done, I nearly always play this game: I ask the person, “Assuming for a moment that you are 100% responsible for fixing the problem, regardless of who created the mess and starting with only the resources you have right now, what would your next move be?” Inevitably, we find a course of action that would lead to a better situation and that does not depend on others changing.
The issue that companies make is that instead of helping individuals through this issue, they tend to skip it. Organizations jump straight to competency modeling and skills training… completely missing that personal responsibility is a prerequisite for being able—or willing—to use a skill; the trainees who aren’t taking responsibility for their actions hear about a skill and say, “Wow… let me tell you who really needs to hear this message!” The key to getting individuals to take responsibility isn’t developing their skills, it’s getting them to connect emotionally with their work!
(Doubt your ability to learn without an emotional connection to the material? Try to recall your math textbook from senior year high school. Can you name the title? The chapters? How much information can you recall? Now, recall the music that was popular that year. How many songs can you name? How many can you still sing along with? My guess is that you’ll do a lot better with the music than the math. Why? Because you were emotionally invested. Nothing’s changed. Until training is fun, easy, and relevant at a very core level, no one cares.)
Sonshi.com: You have a date with your wife and kids to go to an important family event planned months in advance. Your boss also tells you that you must stay late to work on a project due the next morning. What should a person wanting to self-destruct do?
Seiden: Self-destructor: go on the date!
For the record, if I’m going to self-destruct, I really need a lot of work. I’m writing this from my home in Chicago here at 11:30 on Sunday night, while my wife and kids are on vacation. I bailed on the trip to get work done and meet the commitments my clients, students, and associates have of me. The kicker? I’m my own boss.
[End of interview]