Mark McNeilly interview
For the application of Sun Tzu in both war and business, no one has more expertise than author Mark McNeilly. This business strategist and former infantry officer brings to us an insightful and stunningly clear look into the world of Sun Tzu.
With readers in over 40 countries, Mark McNeilly is one of the world's most widely read authors on the application of Sun Tzu's principles in business and warfare. He is the author of two Sun Tzu books. The first, Sun Tzu and the Art of Business: Six Strategic Principles for Managers applies Sun Tzu's concepts to business strategy. There is also the newly published Sun Tzu and the Art of Modern Warfare, which makes Sun Tzu's ideas relevant to warfare throughout the ages. Both books include the complete thirteen chapters of The Art of War, utilizing the very popular Griffith translation.
Mark has discussed his ideas on strategy in the New York Times, on C-SPAN, CNBC's TV Show Power Lunch, the Business News Network program Market Track, the Voice of America's Weekly Business Report, Bloomberg's business news, the syndicated radio program, Secrets of Success and numerous other TV and radio programs.
You can learn more about his books and sign up for his newsletters at SunTzuStrategies.com. Below is our interview with Mark McNeilly.
Sonshi.com: There are many books on how to apply Sun Tzu to business and every conceivable area of life. What makes your book different and better?
McNeilly: I have talked to many people who have The Art of War on their book shelf but have never read it because they found it a difficult read. This is because business people and military personnel seek ideas they can use to be more effective right now and will ignore or dismiss writing that does not meet these criteria. So my goal has to been to convey Sun Tzu's ideas in a useful, practical manner that allows business and military leaders to implement them immediately.
Therefore, at the outset I chose not to construct my book to directly follow the thirteen chapters. My view is that following that construct is part of what makes the applicability to modern day difficult. Instead, I selected the most powerful and significant quotations and then grouped them by similarity. This led me to develop six specific principles that capture Sun Tzu's strategic philosophy. They are:
1) Win All Without Fighting
2) Avoid Strength, Attack Weakness
3) Deception and Foreknowledge
4) Speed and Preparation
5) Shaping the Opponent
6) Character-Based Leadership
Another thing that differentiates my books from others is that they contain several real world examples. Sun Tzu and the Art of Business includes examples from Wal-Mart, GE, Southwest Airlines, BMW, Fed-X and others. Sun Tzu and the Art of Modern Warfare contains examples from warfare throughout history. These examples are used to illustrate the wisdom of a particular Sun Tzu quotation.
Unlike some other books, both Sun Tzu and the Art of Business and Sun Tzu and the Art of Modern Warfare contain the complete thirteen chapters of The Art of War, utilizing the very popular Griffith translation. So in essence the reader gets two books in one. Lastly, I believe my experience as a business strategist, amateur military historian, and former infantry officer combined with a straightforward writing style make the books more interesting, practical and useful.
Sonshi.com: When and how did you first find out about Sun Tzu and his Art of War? What about it interested you?
McNeilly: Even when I was very young I was interested in military history and that is when I first came across The Art of War. At the time my favorite subject area was World War II and one of that war's greatest historians was B. H. Liddell Hart. Hart wrote many books, including Strategy, and he also happened to write the forward to the Griffith Sun Tzu translation. So he helped get me hooked. As I read more military history I saw even greater evidence of the value of The Art of War.
When I became involved in competitive intelligence and business strategy in a major corporation it was apparent that Sun Tzu's ideas were applicable in the business arena as well. That's when I decided to write the first book, Sun Tzu and the Art of Business, and was lucky enough to have Oxford University Press support me in that.
Sonshi.com: Our readers really enjoy your best-selling book "Sun Tzu and the Art of Business: Six Strategic Principles for Managers". Tell us about the six principles and how you identified them as important.
McNeilly: As I mentioned earlier, I purposely avoided using the Thirteen Chapters as the format for the book and instead developed the Six Principles. I felt that by culling out and organizing the most powerful and pertinent quotations and ideas from The Art of War I could get at the heart of Sun Tzu's philosophy and also explain it in a holistic fashion. In a sense the principles "organized themselves" in that they focused on one topic and reinforced one another.
The principle-approach also avoids trying to make every quotation Sun Tzu wrote about ancient Chinese warfare apply to modern problems. I have seen other authors try to make every quote fit. Their method forces the issue and they end up overextending the comparisons beyond what makes sense. I think that can lead to confusion for the reader and a lack of credibility for the author.
The six principles are basically the same for both the business and military books; however, they need to be tweaked a little for each realm. Here's how they appear in the table of contents for each:
Sun Tzu and the Art of Business
1) Win All Without Fighting: Capturing Your Market Without Destroying It
2) Avoid Strength, Attack Weakness: Striking Where They Least Expect It
3) Deception and Foreknowledge: Maximizing the Power of Market Information
4) Speed and Preparation: Moving Swiftly to Overcome Your Competitors
5) Shaping the Opponent: Employing Strategy to Master the Competition
6) Character-Based Leadership: Providing Effective Leadership in Turbulent Times
Sun Tzu and the Art of Modern Warfare
1) Win All Without Fighting: Achieving the Objective Without Destroying It
2) Avoid Strength, Attack Weakness: Striking Where the Enemy Is Most Vulnerable
3) Deception and Foreknowledge: Winning the Information War
4) Speed and Preparation: Moving Swiftly to Overcome Resistance
5) Shaping the Enemy: Preparing the Battlefield
6) Character-Based Leadership: Leading by Example
Sonshi.com: What Sun Tzu principle do you think most companies in general lack?
McNeilly: : That's a toss-up. Many western companies ignore the "avoid strength, attack weakness" principle. Instead, they prefer to make direct attacks on competitors, often by doing something as unsubtle as starting a price war. This often leads to destroying the profitability of the marketplace. They would be better served by taking a more indirect approach.
The other principle I discuss that gets my audiences nodding sympathetically is the need for (or lack of) character-based leadership. People want to do a good job. They want to win in the marketplace. So they hunger for leaders they can trust, both personally and professionally.
Sonshi.com: In your current capacity as a business strategist how do you emphasize the principles of Sun Tzu in your work?
McNeilly: I view myself first and foremost as a strategist, in everything I do. Whether it's something as complex as discussing business or military strategy or as simple as winning a volleyball game or finding a parking space, I look at these issues from a strategic standpoint. So I find Sun Tzu's principles are pertinent in all strategic and competitive situations and work to apply them. For example, "avoid strength, attack weakness" applies to volleyball when you pick out the weakest player on the opposing team and continually hit the ball to them.
Sonshi.com: We understand you are also a military historian. Excellent endeavor! Tell our readers a little about your latest book, "Sun Tzu and The Art of Modern Warfare". Also, do you think the teachings of Sun Tzu provide the correct strategic framework for the 21st century?
McNeilly: Definitely. In my book Sun Tzu and the Art of Modern Warfare I show how Sun Tzu's principles apply to warfare throughout time and even more so today. Indeed, I added a chapter on the war on terrorism to the paperback version of the book, which is coming out in April (2003). It is clear that, at all levels of warfare, from terrorism to guerilla warfare to conventional conflict and even at the diplomatic level, Sun Tzu's principles apply. I've done my best to have Sun Tzu and the Art of Modern Warfare illustrates this.
In my dealings with the American military it is clear that Sun Tzu's philosophy is understood and embraced at the highest levels. I have spoken at the Air Force War College on Sun Tzu's principles and have communicated with individuals at the National Defense University. The latter has a Sun Tzu competition in which military students write papers to apply his ideas to modern military matters. The CENTCOM commander in charge our U.S. operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, Tommy Franks, is an avid student of Sun Tzu and quotes him often.
In summary, I believe Sun Tzu's ideas are time-tested, timeless and apply to any strategic situation.
[End of interview]
With readers in over 40 countries, Mark McNeilly is one of the world's most widely read authors on the application of Sun Tzu's principles in business and warfare. He is the author of two Sun Tzu books. The first, Sun Tzu and the Art of Business: Six Strategic Principles for Managers applies Sun Tzu's concepts to business strategy. There is also the newly published Sun Tzu and the Art of Modern Warfare, which makes Sun Tzu's ideas relevant to warfare throughout the ages. Both books include the complete thirteen chapters of The Art of War, utilizing the very popular Griffith translation.
Mark has discussed his ideas on strategy in the New York Times, on C-SPAN, CNBC's TV Show Power Lunch, the Business News Network program Market Track, the Voice of America's Weekly Business Report, Bloomberg's business news, the syndicated radio program, Secrets of Success and numerous other TV and radio programs.
You can learn more about his books and sign up for his newsletters at SunTzuStrategies.com. Below is our interview with Mark McNeilly.
Sonshi.com: There are many books on how to apply Sun Tzu to business and every conceivable area of life. What makes your book different and better?
McNeilly: I have talked to many people who have The Art of War on their book shelf but have never read it because they found it a difficult read. This is because business people and military personnel seek ideas they can use to be more effective right now and will ignore or dismiss writing that does not meet these criteria. So my goal has to been to convey Sun Tzu's ideas in a useful, practical manner that allows business and military leaders to implement them immediately.
Therefore, at the outset I chose not to construct my book to directly follow the thirteen chapters. My view is that following that construct is part of what makes the applicability to modern day difficult. Instead, I selected the most powerful and significant quotations and then grouped them by similarity. This led me to develop six specific principles that capture Sun Tzu's strategic philosophy. They are:
1) Win All Without Fighting
2) Avoid Strength, Attack Weakness
3) Deception and Foreknowledge
4) Speed and Preparation
5) Shaping the Opponent
6) Character-Based Leadership
Another thing that differentiates my books from others is that they contain several real world examples. Sun Tzu and the Art of Business includes examples from Wal-Mart, GE, Southwest Airlines, BMW, Fed-X and others. Sun Tzu and the Art of Modern Warfare contains examples from warfare throughout history. These examples are used to illustrate the wisdom of a particular Sun Tzu quotation.
Unlike some other books, both Sun Tzu and the Art of Business and Sun Tzu and the Art of Modern Warfare contain the complete thirteen chapters of The Art of War, utilizing the very popular Griffith translation. So in essence the reader gets two books in one. Lastly, I believe my experience as a business strategist, amateur military historian, and former infantry officer combined with a straightforward writing style make the books more interesting, practical and useful.
Sonshi.com: When and how did you first find out about Sun Tzu and his Art of War? What about it interested you?
McNeilly: Even when I was very young I was interested in military history and that is when I first came across The Art of War. At the time my favorite subject area was World War II and one of that war's greatest historians was B. H. Liddell Hart. Hart wrote many books, including Strategy, and he also happened to write the forward to the Griffith Sun Tzu translation. So he helped get me hooked. As I read more military history I saw even greater evidence of the value of The Art of War.
When I became involved in competitive intelligence and business strategy in a major corporation it was apparent that Sun Tzu's ideas were applicable in the business arena as well. That's when I decided to write the first book, Sun Tzu and the Art of Business, and was lucky enough to have Oxford University Press support me in that.
Sonshi.com: Our readers really enjoy your best-selling book "Sun Tzu and the Art of Business: Six Strategic Principles for Managers". Tell us about the six principles and how you identified them as important.
McNeilly: As I mentioned earlier, I purposely avoided using the Thirteen Chapters as the format for the book and instead developed the Six Principles. I felt that by culling out and organizing the most powerful and pertinent quotations and ideas from The Art of War I could get at the heart of Sun Tzu's philosophy and also explain it in a holistic fashion. In a sense the principles "organized themselves" in that they focused on one topic and reinforced one another.
The principle-approach also avoids trying to make every quotation Sun Tzu wrote about ancient Chinese warfare apply to modern problems. I have seen other authors try to make every quote fit. Their method forces the issue and they end up overextending the comparisons beyond what makes sense. I think that can lead to confusion for the reader and a lack of credibility for the author.
The six principles are basically the same for both the business and military books; however, they need to be tweaked a little for each realm. Here's how they appear in the table of contents for each:
Sun Tzu and the Art of Business
1) Win All Without Fighting: Capturing Your Market Without Destroying It
2) Avoid Strength, Attack Weakness: Striking Where They Least Expect It
3) Deception and Foreknowledge: Maximizing the Power of Market Information
4) Speed and Preparation: Moving Swiftly to Overcome Your Competitors
5) Shaping the Opponent: Employing Strategy to Master the Competition
6) Character-Based Leadership: Providing Effective Leadership in Turbulent Times
Sun Tzu and the Art of Modern Warfare
1) Win All Without Fighting: Achieving the Objective Without Destroying It
2) Avoid Strength, Attack Weakness: Striking Where the Enemy Is Most Vulnerable
3) Deception and Foreknowledge: Winning the Information War
4) Speed and Preparation: Moving Swiftly to Overcome Resistance
5) Shaping the Enemy: Preparing the Battlefield
6) Character-Based Leadership: Leading by Example
Sonshi.com: What Sun Tzu principle do you think most companies in general lack?
McNeilly: : That's a toss-up. Many western companies ignore the "avoid strength, attack weakness" principle. Instead, they prefer to make direct attacks on competitors, often by doing something as unsubtle as starting a price war. This often leads to destroying the profitability of the marketplace. They would be better served by taking a more indirect approach.
The other principle I discuss that gets my audiences nodding sympathetically is the need for (or lack of) character-based leadership. People want to do a good job. They want to win in the marketplace. So they hunger for leaders they can trust, both personally and professionally.
Sonshi.com: In your current capacity as a business strategist how do you emphasize the principles of Sun Tzu in your work?
McNeilly: I view myself first and foremost as a strategist, in everything I do. Whether it's something as complex as discussing business or military strategy or as simple as winning a volleyball game or finding a parking space, I look at these issues from a strategic standpoint. So I find Sun Tzu's principles are pertinent in all strategic and competitive situations and work to apply them. For example, "avoid strength, attack weakness" applies to volleyball when you pick out the weakest player on the opposing team and continually hit the ball to them.
Sonshi.com: We understand you are also a military historian. Excellent endeavor! Tell our readers a little about your latest book, "Sun Tzu and The Art of Modern Warfare". Also, do you think the teachings of Sun Tzu provide the correct strategic framework for the 21st century?
McNeilly: Definitely. In my book Sun Tzu and the Art of Modern Warfare I show how Sun Tzu's principles apply to warfare throughout time and even more so today. Indeed, I added a chapter on the war on terrorism to the paperback version of the book, which is coming out in April (2003). It is clear that, at all levels of warfare, from terrorism to guerilla warfare to conventional conflict and even at the diplomatic level, Sun Tzu's principles apply. I've done my best to have Sun Tzu and the Art of Modern Warfare illustrates this.
In my dealings with the American military it is clear that Sun Tzu's philosophy is understood and embraced at the highest levels. I have spoken at the Air Force War College on Sun Tzu's principles and have communicated with individuals at the National Defense University. The latter has a Sun Tzu competition in which military students write papers to apply his ideas to modern military matters. The CENTCOM commander in charge our U.S. operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, Tommy Franks, is an avid student of Sun Tzu and quotes him often.
In summary, I believe Sun Tzu's ideas are time-tested, timeless and apply to any strategic situation.
[End of interview]