Robert Fry interview
It should come as no surprise to any of us here that Sun Tzu's Art of War is among the greatest books ever written. Countless people over two and a half thousand years have lauded it and the list of advocates is long (not necessarily made up of only the rich and famous, by the way). But when we came across an article in Forbes magazine titled Sun Tzu: The Best Leadership Teacher of All Time? we took special notice.
We took special notice because the article was no ordinary piece and the author was no ordinary writer. For the author was Sir Robert Fry, a lieutenant general who last served in the coalition forces in Iraq, and who later became chairman of McKinney Rogers. Here was a man who had not only read The Art of War three decades ago but has also applied it in war and business since that time, and, thus, lived it. Although each of our life experiences are different, he exemplifies what Sonshi.com is all about -- applying Sun Tzu's Art of War to better our society and refine our individual character.
In addition, Sir Robert Fry is an award-winning essayist, proving his ability to explain concepts with clarity and succinctness reminiscent of Sun Tzu himself:
"One of the reasons I love Sun Tzu is the clear wisdom at work in the book, the clarity of thought running throughout it. It offers a unique view of the world that transcends its original military focus as it discusses the notions of appropriate use of resources, of 'measuring, estimating, counting, comparing and gauging' both your own strength and that of the 'enemy'--indeed, the idea of classifying knowledge itself as a precious resource. Those are all ideas that are immediately applicable today."
We wanted to learn more from Sir Fry's experience, both in war and in business. The following interview is the result of that desire. The lessons he gives are of uniting people in common interest and of setting an example you expect from those you lead. What's perhaps even more central is the lesson of thinking for yourself, ironically useful for those who seek to listen to others and understand them. Decide for yourself below.
Sonshi.com: When were you first interested in Sun Tzu's Art of War, and what motivated you to continue to apply his lessons to your military and business life?
Fry: Initially as an undergraduate student, but only in a rather superficial way. Later, when involved in a period of post graduate research, I became much more interested and began to see Sun Tzu as part of the pantheon of writers that define the study of strategy and include Caesar, Machiavelli and Clausewitz.
Sonshi.com: You not only served as Lieutenant General and Commander of special operations, but also as VP of Hewlett Packard. What are the major similarities and differences between working in the military and working in business, such as leading men and women?
Fry: Nobody dies in business. Business is also a 24 x 7 x 365 undertaking, and, no matter what soldiers say, they spend more time training and preparing for war than actually conducting it. That said, both disciplines are about the creation of definitive identities - brand or regiment. Both are about meeting a sentient opponent; either the enemy or the competition and if actors in either discipline make the complacent assumption that the opponent is less smart, determined or ruthless than they are, they will lose. Finally, both are characterised by a patchwork of alliance and adversarial relationships.
Sonshi.com: You are also an award-winning writer, and professor at Reading University and fellow of Oxford. Sun Tzu was known equally as a military man and as a philosopher. Do you believe effective leadership requires skills in both "pen and sword"?
Fry: Undoubtedly. I look to Sir Michael Howard's description of the Elder Moltke - "more a figure from the world of arts and letters than the camp" - to illustrate my point.
Sonshi.com: What attributes do you seek in the people who work for you and what attributes do you seek in those you promote to leadership positions?
Fry: One above all others: the ability to take and understand guidance but act independently, not only in their own actions but also in the actions they expect from others.
Sonshi.com: Do you think leadership can be boiled down to a science (general attributes that work in most situations), or do you think it is more situational (certain attributes are relevant in certain situations only)?
Fry: Leadership is art underwritten by science. The understanding of procedural rigour and discipline releases the effective leader to act imaginatively. If leadership was simply science there could never be an Alexander, Napoleon or Henry Ford.
Sonshi.com: From your experience working in foreign lands, including the Middle East, do you believe we can get to common ground sufficiently to end the hate that causes our current wars and conflicts?
Fry: Yes, war is rarely about cultural conflict alone but about economic conflict reflected through a cultural prism; gobalisation will reduce that. Also, universal threats like climate change and nuclear proliferation are culture blind and will bind mankind with a unifying challenge.
Sonshi.com: Do you believe wars are inevitable in the world, as respected military scholars such as Martin van Creveld believe, or do you think there will be a time in the future with smart strategies and preventative measures in place, world peace will eventually prevail?
Fry: For the time being, yes, I think war is endemic and inevitable. But I don't believe it need always be like that; a world facing a common threat or opportunity may not have time for the distraction of war.
Sonshi.com: What advice would you give to young people in the military and/or in business?
Fry: Seek advice but make your own decisions.
We took special notice because the article was no ordinary piece and the author was no ordinary writer. For the author was Sir Robert Fry, a lieutenant general who last served in the coalition forces in Iraq, and who later became chairman of McKinney Rogers. Here was a man who had not only read The Art of War three decades ago but has also applied it in war and business since that time, and, thus, lived it. Although each of our life experiences are different, he exemplifies what Sonshi.com is all about -- applying Sun Tzu's Art of War to better our society and refine our individual character.
In addition, Sir Robert Fry is an award-winning essayist, proving his ability to explain concepts with clarity and succinctness reminiscent of Sun Tzu himself:
"One of the reasons I love Sun Tzu is the clear wisdom at work in the book, the clarity of thought running throughout it. It offers a unique view of the world that transcends its original military focus as it discusses the notions of appropriate use of resources, of 'measuring, estimating, counting, comparing and gauging' both your own strength and that of the 'enemy'--indeed, the idea of classifying knowledge itself as a precious resource. Those are all ideas that are immediately applicable today."
We wanted to learn more from Sir Fry's experience, both in war and in business. The following interview is the result of that desire. The lessons he gives are of uniting people in common interest and of setting an example you expect from those you lead. What's perhaps even more central is the lesson of thinking for yourself, ironically useful for those who seek to listen to others and understand them. Decide for yourself below.
Sonshi.com: When were you first interested in Sun Tzu's Art of War, and what motivated you to continue to apply his lessons to your military and business life?
Fry: Initially as an undergraduate student, but only in a rather superficial way. Later, when involved in a period of post graduate research, I became much more interested and began to see Sun Tzu as part of the pantheon of writers that define the study of strategy and include Caesar, Machiavelli and Clausewitz.
Sonshi.com: You not only served as Lieutenant General and Commander of special operations, but also as VP of Hewlett Packard. What are the major similarities and differences between working in the military and working in business, such as leading men and women?
Fry: Nobody dies in business. Business is also a 24 x 7 x 365 undertaking, and, no matter what soldiers say, they spend more time training and preparing for war than actually conducting it. That said, both disciplines are about the creation of definitive identities - brand or regiment. Both are about meeting a sentient opponent; either the enemy or the competition and if actors in either discipline make the complacent assumption that the opponent is less smart, determined or ruthless than they are, they will lose. Finally, both are characterised by a patchwork of alliance and adversarial relationships.
Sonshi.com: You are also an award-winning writer, and professor at Reading University and fellow of Oxford. Sun Tzu was known equally as a military man and as a philosopher. Do you believe effective leadership requires skills in both "pen and sword"?
Fry: Undoubtedly. I look to Sir Michael Howard's description of the Elder Moltke - "more a figure from the world of arts and letters than the camp" - to illustrate my point.
Sonshi.com: What attributes do you seek in the people who work for you and what attributes do you seek in those you promote to leadership positions?
Fry: One above all others: the ability to take and understand guidance but act independently, not only in their own actions but also in the actions they expect from others.
Sonshi.com: Do you think leadership can be boiled down to a science (general attributes that work in most situations), or do you think it is more situational (certain attributes are relevant in certain situations only)?
Fry: Leadership is art underwritten by science. The understanding of procedural rigour and discipline releases the effective leader to act imaginatively. If leadership was simply science there could never be an Alexander, Napoleon or Henry Ford.
Sonshi.com: From your experience working in foreign lands, including the Middle East, do you believe we can get to common ground sufficiently to end the hate that causes our current wars and conflicts?
Fry: Yes, war is rarely about cultural conflict alone but about economic conflict reflected through a cultural prism; gobalisation will reduce that. Also, universal threats like climate change and nuclear proliferation are culture blind and will bind mankind with a unifying challenge.
Sonshi.com: Do you believe wars are inevitable in the world, as respected military scholars such as Martin van Creveld believe, or do you think there will be a time in the future with smart strategies and preventative measures in place, world peace will eventually prevail?
Fry: For the time being, yes, I think war is endemic and inevitable. But I don't believe it need always be like that; a world facing a common threat or opportunity may not have time for the distraction of war.
Sonshi.com: What advice would you give to young people in the military and/or in business?
Fry: Seek advice but make your own decisions.