Robert Greene interviews
Power. Seduction. War. Three separate topics that invoke strong emotion in many people. However, to author extraordinaire Robert Greene, they are: 1) interrelated where the principles are fluid and really do apply to various facets of everyday life and 2) struggles that can be handled and mastered with intelligence, not emotion.
It is Mr. Greene's emphasis on rationale, flexibility, and honesty in his writing that sets him apart from countless humdrum, politically correct business/self-help writers. His books do not sugarcoat the harsh realities of life; they teach thinking adults how to live life to the fullest. For that, we thank Mr. Greene for making the great classics even greater -- by making their principles graspable and thus applicable in the real world where there exist reversals, twists, and turns.
Robert Greene, 45, was born and raised in Los Angeles, California. He has a degree in Classics and can read and speak six languages. Mr. Green lived in Europe for over five years, namely Paris, London, Barcelona, and Rome. He has worked as an editor at various magazines, a translator of French to English, and as a writer in Hollywood.
And of course he has written three significant, best-selling books: The 48 Laws of Power (Viking/Penguin 1998), The Art of Seduction (Viking/Penguin 2001), and The 33 Strategies of War (Viking/Penguin 2006). The 48 Laws of Power has sold close to 800,000 copies in the United States and over 1.5 million worldwide. It has been translated into 19 languages, so far. He currently lives in Los Angeles.
For more information, please visit www.powerseductionandwar.com
Below are our interviews with Mr. Greene. Enjoy!
Sonshi.com: In your most recent book, "The 33 Strategies of War," you referred to Sun Tzu’s Art of War numerous times and stated that Sun Tzu is "perhaps the greatest strategist of them all." What is it about Sun Tzu and his Art of War that you admire?
Greene: If I could simplify the whole game of power and strategy in one equation, it would all hinge on the capacity to see events around you exactly as they are. The closer your mind is to reality, the better your strategies, your responses in life. But we humans have a strange psychological block. Our minds are constantly stopping on one thing, one idea, one experience or emotion. When that happens, we are looking at events through the tunnel of our own biases or negative experiences. We lose contact with reality. Anything living is in a constant state of flux. Nothing stays the same. And so our thoughts must constantly adapt to what is happening around us and never get stuck on this idea, or that way of doing things.
This obsessed me in The 48 Laws. At the end of each chapter I included a Reversal, which basically said that you must look at the Law I have just written from the opposite perspective. I also included laws that seem to contradict each other, because events in life are often at cross currents. I also included a chapter at the end about formlessness, saying essentially that you must ignore everything here I have written, and learn to think for yourself, based on your circumstances.
Which brings me to Sun-tzu. All of the writers I admire most have this capacity to stretch their minds to the shape of what is going on around them. Among those who write of strategy (although I would maintain all writing is about strategy in some way), Sun-tzu stands above all the others. Some of this is cultural. The ideas I expressed in the above first paragraph have deep ties to ancient Chinese philosophy, ideas that are embedded in the language itself. The ancient Chinese way of thinking is completely relational. Nothing is static. Things only have meaning in relation to one another. An event here will never mean the same if it happens there. This is opposed to the Western way of thinking (I am overgeneralizing), which tends to create dualisms and absolutes.
Sun-tzu sees everything in fluid terms. Nothing is absolute, except one simple premise around which everything else revolves: the art of war is winning with minimum bloodshed, and minimum violence. This has a Confucian, ethical element to it, but it is also pure strategy and very Chinese. Winning with violence creates a countercurrent that causes you more problems in the long run. War is inherently more dangerous than life itself (the violence of life), because it is more unpredictable, creates more chaos in its wake. The brake on this is your ability to minimize the chaos, the variables by lowering resistance in your path. Violence and overt aggression only increases resistance.
Sun–tzu is a true strategist, as opposed to the usual type we find who simply regurgitates some preconceived maxims, or the kind of mindless military jargon we see nowadays. He makes you focus on the circumstances, and how you can approach them from angles. What is indirect creates less resistance. Indirection is subtle, like the flowing of the unorthodox out of the orthodox and vice versa. It is what is least expected.
I love Sun-tzu’s brutal language (I am sure it is not given anything close to justice in modern English), and this universe he has created in the remarkably dense 13 chapters. It is like a Zodiac, or the 64 hexagrams of the I Ching. He has created the universal patterns for all conflict. Your mind must raise itself up to this higher stratosphere of strategic thought. From there, you will respond with intelligent action, with sound tactics. It is almost too banal to even express, but those running businesses or wars are rarely strategists, but rather tacticians who know how to disguise themselves. That abstract realm of thought that must preface all intelligent action is missing. If only everyone really read Sun–tzu, really pondered what he said, as opposed to digesting him because it seems cool or warlike.
He is the god of strategists, and all of the rest of us are mere demigods or mortals. (Musashi is one of the highest of the demigods, in my cosmology.) I reread The Art of War every few months, so that I keep his ideas constantly in my mind.
Sonshi.com: Of course Sun Tzu wasn’t the only person you referenced in "33 Strategies." Similar to your previous books, you used an impressive variety of sources to support your rules of warfare. They include Napoleon, Rommel, Musashi, Otto von Bismarck, Clausewitz, Mao Tse-Tung, Scipio Africanus, T.E. Lawrence, Genghis Khan, and Julius Caesar just to name a few. You sprinkle your books with countless quotations from a wide array of literary works. How were you exposed to so many significant works and what method do you use to synthesize their most important concepts into digestible nuggets of wisdom?
Greene: Well, I do a lot of research for each of my books. For WAR, I read over 400 original source materials. I do that because I want my ideas to be grounded in something solid, something timeless. And also, because research excites me. It is a kind of game. Through the library or the Internet, I jump from one book to the other, as one idea pushes me into different directions. I like to begin the research process with a completely open mind. I let the material suggest possibilities and timeless concepts. It is a weird kind of power: to scour 4000 years of military history and find the patterns. I pride myself on making it as open-ended as possible—from ancient Egypt to Desert Storm, from the German General Staff, to Shaka Zulu’s horns, chest and loins.
From this wide net I cast on world history, I make detailed notes, on 4 by 6 cards. (Curiously, I later discovered Napoleon himself was fond of writing on cards and organizing them.) These cards are color-coded and filed based on the subject, the pattern, the strategy it fits. Sometimes a card goes into several categories, and so I am constantly moving them around. Nothing stays in one place. From these cards, I see discern patterns of action, concepts, and pieces of wisdom. I distill the subjects down and down. I started with about 65 strategies, but ended with 33. Nothing good comes out of you unless you love what you are doing, and I love the research process.
Sonshi.com: You are best known for your first book, "The 48 Laws of Power." How is your third book different and what more does it offer? In other words, what motivated you to write "33 Strategies"?
Greene: The 33 Strategies is similar to Power, but also different. The 48 Laws is really about strategy, but to create it I looked at all facets of human endeavor—politics, courtiership, war, entertainment, business, etc. Machiavelli was really the main figure behind the book, although there are others, and Machiavelli’s ideas can be applied to society in general. For the 33 Strategies, I wanted to try something completely novel, something I believe has not been done. I wanted to base all of my ideas on warfare, on the classic military books on strategy. From that foundation, I wanted to establish the key strategies that are used throughout history. And from there, I wanted to see how those ideas have been used in non-military areas, and how they could be further used in that way.
What is radical here is that I am treating warfare not as a specialized realm, which I think is a real mistake, a mistake even Sun-tzu argued against, in his own way. Rather, war is an eminently human endeavor, and success in that realm turns upon elemental human psychology. The ideas expressed in thousands of years in the history of war have tremendous application to all kinds of conflicts and to any competitive realm. For instance, a concept such as the flanking maneuver has its roots in the concept that you should always attack from unexpected angles, at the unprotected sides. This wisdom can be applied to how you think about problems, how you deal with a troublesome colleague at work, how you maneuver against a business rival. I spell out these connections in that particular chapter. I dig under each military strategy to uncover what is at the heart of it.
There are other books out there that try to make connections between war and business. They are generally superficial. I tried to be as thorough and profound as possible. And I am not simply making the connection to business, but also to the social realm, to culture, to personal relationships, on and on. And so, I am finding the connections between a Rommel and a political strategist, or a film director.
I am very much against the compartmentalization of warfare nowadays. It is a highly specialized form of knowledge, full of ridiculous jargon. Both sides—military and civilian—like to cloister themselves off from the other. I think the founding fathers of America had a much different vision, as did Sun–tzu. It is dangerous when the military organizes itself into this bunkered enclave, where they simply talk amongst themselves. There is incredible knowledge in the history of warfare and its strategies, and a kind of wisdom that should be disseminated. I think many of the problems now plaguing the American military stems from its nature as a self–enclosed organization. How can we otherwise explain its weird propensity to disassociate war from politics in the current Iraq campaign?
Sonshi.com: As you mentioned, despite the warfare concepts discussed, any non-military reader can quite easily relate them to the conflicts and competition experienced in his or her daily life. Would it be accurate to say your book’s concepts in power, seduction, and war relate to your own personal experiences and lessons in life as well?
Greene: Very much so. And I think that is why the books are popular. I give you the basic patterns of action in power, seduction, or war, and I let readers make personal connections to events in their lives. A lot of this came from my experience in the work world, and in particular in Hollywood. I tended to see some of my bosses as Cesare Borgias or little Genghis Khans trying to make their way through or around their rivals. I put a lot of my own experiences in the books, but disguised behind stories of famous figures. The stories I tell in the books (each concept is illustrated with stories from history) are designed to teach you lessons. What point is there in living if you are not learning from experience, yours or others?
Sonshi.com: Flavius Vegetius Renatus said, "Let him who desires peace prepare for war." Do you think most people are too focused on trying to obtain peace without first learning to how deal with war?
Greene: Yes. That is a major concept in The 33 Strategies. There is too much conflict avoidance in our culture. Some of this comes from a lot of political correctness that has filtered its way through society. Some of it comes from the importance of always appearing to be on the side of peace, cooperation, fairness to one and all. But life involves constant competition and conflict and how you deal with this will determine your fate in life. Being steeped in the art of war does not make you aggressive, at least not under the banner of Sun–tzu. Rather it makes you smarter, more prudent, better able to handle life’s inevitable struggles with intelligence. I want my book to ground the reader in certain basic principles, so when conflict comes, he or she can take the proper stance, like a swordsman.
Besides, I hate the way war is seen as something inherently brutal and ugly. Yes, much of war nowadays brings out the worst part of our nature. But in war, all kinds of noble human traits have been developed, such as discipline, cohesion, pride. All of life involves a kind of warfare, and a lot of Hindu texts spiritualize warfare into a struggle from within, to gain control over your own beastly nature. People with bumperstickers that say "War is not the answer" are such idiots. Tell that to those countries that found themselves invaded by the Nazis. As Heraclitus wrote, "War is the father of everything. Some it makes slaves, others masters."
Sonshi.com: A criticism of your books is the ideas you propose are "without scruples." Amoral is perhaps a better description. What is your response to these critics?
Greene: Well, I use the word amoral to describe them, as opposed to immoral. I try to look at the various subjects (power, seduction and war) with as dispassionate an eye as possible. This is human nature, I say, and this is how it operates in conflict, or when it is threatened, etc. Sometimes we humans do things that are bad, in order to get power—we hurt others. Sometimes we get power in ways that are not at all harmful. Here is the full panoply of stratagems, manipulations, maneuvers. You can look at them and decide for yourself—"this is too evil for me, but I am glad I know about it." A lot of the book is deliberately defensive, in the sense that it arms you with knowledge, so that you can understand the manipulations of those around you.
For instance, in Hollywood, I was a frequent victim of Law #7: Get others to do the work for you but always take the credit. Half the reason I wrote this chapter was to make people more aware of how this could happen to them and to take defensive measures. I get a lot of feedback from people who have told me how much the book has helped them in this way. They would never use some of the harsher strategies I talk about, but they are very glad to know the games others are playing on them.
I treat readers as adults. Instead of preaching to them about what they should or should not do, I lay it out for them, and I let them decide what is useful and what is not. I cannot deny there are people out there who might use these ideas for bad purposes, but what are you going to do? I think it is better to reveal the power game in all of its amoral reality and let happen what happens.
I also make the point, in the WAR book (and also in POWER) that power has traditionally been something reserved for elites. Elites have always objected to knowledge being given to the masses. Military strategy is the most elite form of knowledge that there is. Soldiers were taught tactics. It was too dangerous to allow them to get their hands on books on strategy. They could use this valuable information to foment revolution. People still think the same way, but for different reasons. I want a level playing field and everyone to be armed with the art of war.
My books have been very popular in the African-American community. They appreciate knowing how people have used power in the past, often against them. They want to know how the game is played, in as realistic a fashion as possible. They want the truth. I find those who rail against my books often have a lot of personal issues, and are generally people who can be classified as quite manipulative, in the passive aggressive mode.
Sonshi.com: One of the most outstanding concepts you wrote about in "33 Strategies" was number 15, "Control the Dynamic," a strategy that does not have a reversal. Central to Sun Tzu’s Art of War is always being active and taking a proactive stance: from planning ahead in the temple to initiating the time and place of battle. In your opinion, of the 33 strategies, which one do you think applies most often in people’s lives?
Greene: It depends on your circumstances. It’s all relative. If you are dealing with stressful situations, chapter three on maintaining your presence of mind would be particularly helpful, as would chapter 4 if you find it hard to motivate yourself. Chapters 5 and 6 are particularly relevant to leaders of any group. I make the point that structure is strategy—how you organize your group will determine its mobility, efficiency, morale, etc. Chapter 8 is very important—it is about operating with economy, finding the perfect level between your means and your ends. The center of gravity chapter is critical for attacking any problem. But I suppose if I had to elevate one chapter above the others, it is the longest one in the book—chapter 12, on Grand Strategy. This to me is the apex of strategic thought—the ability to think in terms of a campaign, not battles. This has great relevance to daily life.
I make the point that most of us live in what I call tactical hell. We are constantly reacting to what others give us, managing the battles that confront us day in and day out. We rarely get control. Our minds become dominated by tactical thinking. We can only focus on details. We argue and nitpick about this battle or that battle. It is hell.
Strategy is a kind of mental ladder you climb to get above these battles, gain some perspective and plot your moves. It is a mental purgatory. Grand strategy is simply this idea taken further—gaining a perspective that encompasses months or years. It is incredibly liberating and powerful when you have clear idea of where you want to be in five years, or can focus on what you see as your destiny in life. It helps you manage your daily decisions. "It is not important I fight this battle because it does not serve my overall goals." On and on.
Grand strategy is heaven, one we rarely reach, but must always aim for. It is the ultimate form of rationality. The word is misused nowadays, and I try to correct this in the chapter. I wish everyone would read it. And it is my modest homage to the spirit of Sun-tzu.
[End of interview one]
Sonshi.com: Last time you were here, you introduced our readers to your book "33 Strategies of War" and of course discussed the "48 Laws of Power." Now you have another hard-hitting book called "The 50th Law" (available September 8, 2009), and it's a collaborative effort with rapper Curtis Jackson, aka 50 Cent. Would you mind giving us the background on the book's title?
Greene: The book is a blending of two disparate worlds.the writer and the hustler. The 50 in the title obviously refers to Fifty Cent, and the Law refers to my book, The 48 Laws of Power.
In talking to Fifty and observing him in action, I had the idea that I wanted to get at the essence of his success, why he was able to emerge from one of the most hopeless corners of America and reach the top. Most people are crushed by such circumstances, but he wasn't.
At one point in our discussions, I had the realization that it was his fearlessness that elevated him above his peers. Most people remain tied to the same circle of actions because they are deeply afraid of change, of something unfamiliar. This keeps them locked in a kind of invisible prison of their own making. Because of Fifty's experiences and something in his character, he learned to move past the deepest fears that inhibit most of us. He learned to not be afraid of being alone (he never knew his father and his mother was murdered when he was eight), and to develop self.reliance. He taught himself to not be afraid of change, to leave the hustling world at the age of 20 and enter with full force into music. He found a way to embrace adversity and reverse it into power. Overcoming the fear of death, he feels he has nothing to lose by taking risks. This fearlessness on his part gives him a much greater range of action than others and translates into freedom and power.
In reflecting on the research in my other books, I realized that almost all powerful people in history share this quality.an adventurous and fearless spirit. It is in fact the foundation of any kind of success in this world. You could have a lot of money at your fingertips, the finest education and intellectual knowledge, but if you are governed by fear none of that will matter. You will remain tied to dead ideas and stale strategies. You will not be able to adapt. You will lose what you have. You cannot master the 48 Laws until you have gained control over yourself, confronted and overcome your fears. That is the essence of the 50th Law.
Sonshi.com: You compared your collaboration with 50 Cent to the role that Niccolo Machiavelli played while analyzing Cesare Borgia (and others involved in Florentine politics and military affairs) in writing The Prince. That leads us to ask these two questions: What is 50 Cent's intent in publishing "The 50th Law"? What is your intent?
Greene: Fifty is a master at the 48 Laws, a living, breathing example of the types I analyzed in the book. He lives by the precept .conceal your intentions,. so I can never be quite sure what his intent might be in doing this book. But I will hazard a guess: He is a very intelligent, thoughtful person as well as a master strategist. He also has his flaws as any human does. As a celebrity, he finds himself locked into this simplified character he has to portray for the public.the thuggish, aggressive rapper. The public does not see the other dimensions. After several years of this, he has become tired of playing this role. He has the desire to reveal the more reflective side of his personality and the lessons he has learned in life. It was a relief for him to be able to talk about larger issues and his philosophy, rather than answering the same boring questions about his life as a celebrity. Also, such this book will help glean his image, cast him in a new light and make people take him more seriously. Of course, this is all speculation on my part.
As for me: Fifty had originally approached me to do this book and at first I was hesitant. I like to work on my own, without any hindrances from others. Also, I am not interested in celebrity culture; I am more intrigued by the actions of everyday people than the puffery surrounding stars. But when I met him I could see he was different. We shared the same interest in power and strategy. He was surprisingly normal and down to earth. And the more I began to contemplate doing the book, the more I became excited by a simple idea. My other books involved massive amounts of research and thinking, but it was all in my head. Fifty is a master practitioner of the game and I could study him in action.
Also, I became intrigued with the idea of moving into a world.that of the urban hustler.that was so different from mine. It would be an exciting task to bring that world alive, and show how hustling is in fact a life skill, a very human attribute. I believe that for both of us this book was a way to challenge ourselves and try something different. The 50th Law might fail, who knows, but we can honestly say no one has really attempted anything quite like it.
Sonshi.com: When we saw a video interview with 50 Cent on BusinessWeek, we were blown away by his rather quiet and gentle demeanor. Perhaps we were expecting the tough guy image portrayed by many rappers. (For the reader's benefit, 50 Cent recently profited $100 million from his investment in Glaceau, the company that makes VitaminWater.) From what you observed, how is 50 Cent's mindset different from successful businesspeople in traditional industries, if indeed the mindset is different?
Greene: People generally have their mindset formed by a mix of their early experiences in life and their formal education. People at the top in business most often come from relatively similar backgrounds of privilege and entitlement. If they do come from a different culture or from poverty, their attitude is quickly shaped and altered around them. The few who start out as adventurous entrepreneurs are under tremendous pressure to conform to the usual patterns of action, particularly if they have success and their business grows. They succumb to all of the conventions in place, many of which are based on models from decades past, or from certain ideas promoted in business schools.
Fifty has no formal education. His mind was formed on the streets, as a hustler. The hustler is a character that I analyze in great depth in the book. Hustlers learn early on to make the most of what they have. They don't wait for better resources or more gadgetry. They take everything at their fingertips and find ways to transform such things into money and power. They are not afraid of adversity or risk; they are trained early on to deal with chaotic situations and exploit them. They also learn to get as close as possible to their customer base, to have a great feel for what the public desires. For Fifty, hustling on the streets served as his MBA.
We make the case in the book that we are entering a new world order. You can throw out the old rules and conventions. In fact, the world is coming to resemble the environment of southside Queens during the crack epidemic.chaotic and highly competitive. In the crack cocaine era, the old large.scale gang networks that were very hierarchical could not meet the demand of their customers, and so corner entrepreneurs entered the fray. Those who could think on their feet and not be tied down by worn.out ideas were the ones who thrived. They exploited the apparent disorder for power by being fluid and fast.
The streets had such a strong influence on Fifty that he was able to withstand the leveling.down impact of the business world. He had learned that his power came from being different, from moving in his own lane.a hustler expression. He would not grow conservative or do things the traditional way. He would break the mold. This meant, like any hustler, experimenting with different ventures, not afraid if one or two of them failed. It meant taking risks, going in directions that were not predictable. It meant exploiting changes in the music business instead of fighting them. Embracing the chaos of the times. This makes him a very powerful figure.what Machiavelli would term as the New Prince, the man who can move beyond his fixed nature and truly adapt to circumstance. People in business are maddeningly conventional. They think that because something worked for someone else, at a different time, it will work for them. This is a great hindrance to any kind of creativity. To the extent that Fifty is able to stay true to his hustler past, he will continue to do well in circumstances that make others flounder.
Sonshi.com: If people understand, study, and take action on "The 50th Law" how do you think they will see their life change (once they conquer their fears)? In other words, how will it make their lives better?
Greene: The first thing the book will do is to make people aware of how deeply their lives are governed by fear. When you stay at a job or a relationship, despite the fact you are not too happy there, you will often justify this action by telling yourself you have a plan, or you will get a promotion soon, or you need to just wait, or you are being loyal. In fact, it is hidden fear that is governing these choices and these fears become a habit. They inhibit your mobility in life. You become afraid of doing things that will displease other people, even though you cannot gain power in this world without breaking a few eggs. You don't take on challenges because you are afraid of failure, but you cannot learn anything unless you are willing to fail. You come to depend on other people, afraid to do things alone. The book will make you aware of the problem, which is half of the solution. You cannot go through life avoiding your fears. One day something bad will happen and you will not have the ability to cope or attack the situation, because you only know how to retreat.
Once aware of the problem, the book will help you explore that realm beyond fear. You need to confront what makes you afraid. If you are afraid of conflict and battle, you need to force yourself to deal with this instead of running away. Each time you move past a fear, you turn a negative into a positive. For instance, if you overcome the fear of being alone, you become self.reliant and entrepreneurial. If you move past the fear of being criticized, you gain the power of using people's feedback to make your work more alive. If you get past your fear of boredom and drudge work, you become disciplined. If you overcome your fear of death, nothing can really shake you. The book will give you countless ideas on how to do this, many inspired by those in history who used such strategies.
You can never get rid of all of your fears. Some are necessary and a part of life. But most of our fears are illusory, based on risks or threats that exist only in our minds. Such fears constrain and make us miserable. The feeling of moving past a particular fear is one of liberation and freedom. You are willing to explore and be open to life. The book cannot make you move in that direction, but perhaps inspire you. And it is our hope it will have such an effect.
Sonshi.com: We often hear that Wall Street is governed by greed and fear -- two opposing emotional extremes that somehow keep the financial markets delicately balanced, adjusting to the natural societal forces of supply and demand. You probably know where we are going with this. Are there risks, detrimental to society perhaps, if people are truly without fear?
Greene: I suppose what you are saying is that it was people on Wall Street, operating without fear of the consequences of their greedy actions, who created the mess that we are in. In that argument, such people need to have more fear, not less. But let us look at this more closely.
Greed stems from impatience. A greedy person does not have the discipline or the faith to spend years accumulating knowledge, power and money. They want it all now. They cannot think long.term, only months ahead. As we describe this phenomenon in chapter 8 of The 50th Law, such impatience is in fact a form of hidden fear. To make anything that lasts or that is solid requires learning the craft, spending years at it, and patiently building up a power base. There are no real shortcuts. What comes fast, leaves fast. When you succumb to greed and impatience, you really have a fear of process, of sacrificing something in the short.term for long.term gain. That is the real fear governing those on Wall Street who respond so nervously to the quarterly report. If they were to have more of such fear, it would only make them more impatient and grasping for things in the present.
This is a tremendous problem in our culture. We have become used to everything coming to us with tremendous speed and ease. We can get whatever food we want in record time. We can Google for some bit of information, not having to resort to books or libraries. We can use our credit cards to pretend we have the money that is not there. It is a culture where discipline and patience is almost impossible to develop. From my relative inside position in the business world, I see this speed and impatience infecting the smartest executives and causing them to take all kinds of foolish actions. The pressure also comes from the bottom.shareholders are nervous and want instant results, growth at any cost.
Basically we have a misconception about fearlessness. It does not mean being aggressive, bold and even reckless. It means having self.control and balance. People who are fearless have a kind of mental center of gravity.they are not swayed by the pressures or panicky actions of others around them. They have the strength of mind to look years down the road and take the right action. If you think that does not require fearlessness, try being the CEO or president of the United States and withstand the intense pressures to produce results now, no matter the long.term consequences.
Sonshi.com: Here's a question we neglected to ask last time. Why do you think 50 Cent and other rapper and hip hop artists are so drawn to "The 48 Laws of Power," and which one of the 48 laws did many of them tell you they relate to the most?
Greene: A lot of it was luck and timing. The 48 Laws came out at a time when many hip hop artists were becoming aware of the real dynamic at play in the music industry: they do all of the work, but the major labels basically control the fruits of their labor. They may be paid well, but in the end they have no ownership and when the industry decides they are no longer so hot, they are discarded as quickly as they were hyped. For decades, black musicians have been the most exploited of all. But to gain power in the music industry, as anywhere else, you can't simply get angry, protest, or organize. You have to be strategic. You have to understand the intense political games going on. You have to be aware of how they seduce you with money and perks and attention, blinding you to the power realities.
Many of these rappers came from the streets. They have a sense of the game and how manipulative people can be, but their ideas are not organized or coherent enough. The book came out at just the moment when they were looking to have more ownership, more control. The 48 Laws articulated ideas they had felt or intuited, but in a way they could use in their daily business interactions. They appreciated the honesty in the book.revealing the manipulative tricks people have used for centuries, often against African Americans. (Power until recently has been a white man's game in this country.) The book's popularity gained some momentum as a few of the artists such as Jay-Z publicized their use of the book, but well before then it was in the hands of their managers who spread the word among themselves.
Fifty uses many of the laws. He crushes his enemies totally. He conceals his intentions. He enters action with boldness. He talks about using such laws. But the one he mentioned the most to me and that I have seen in action is Law 21, Play a Sucker to Catch a Sucker. He makes it seem that he is just another violent rapper, aggressive but dumb. This blinds people to his clever maneuvers and manipulations.
Nas has quoted a few laws in some of his songs. Jay-Z mentioned being influenced by Law 18, Do not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself. I think more than specific laws, however, these rappers relate to the overall world depicted in the book, which matches the dog.eat.dog reality of the music business.
Sonshi.com: You mentioned that even in Los Angeles, where you live, people tend to gravitate toward other people like themselves, whether on race, social status, etc. Conversely, you mentioned you like to go out of your way to meet and learn from people from varying backgrounds because they tend to have different perspectives, without which your old ways of thinking never get challenged. Along those same lines, we're fairly certain it has crossed your mind at least once how extraordinary that the black community, quite different from the one you grew up in, was drawn to you and your work. For example, how Busta Rhymes and Kanye West treasure your words and how 50 Cent reached out to you. Perhaps there's karma and natural reciprocity going on here? Are we making too much of this? What are your thoughts?
Greene: I have always been drawn to other cultures and other ways of thinking. For me it is a kind of therapy and way to expand my contact with reality. We are not aware of this happening, but because we tend to associate with our own kind, our world becomes narrower and narrower as we get older. We live among conventions and symbols that we mistake for reality. Our thoughts tend to revolve around these conventions, to follow the same paths over and over. When we travel, if we have an open spirit, we become aware of how deeply asleep we are. There are other ways of looking at the world, other ways of thinking and experiencing. I have brought this into my life by living in other cultures, reading books in other languages and immersing myself in the ideas of people who think differently.
One of my first experiences on this plane was in junior high school in Los Angeles. Suddenly, one day, black students from the inner city were bussed into our school and for me this was very exciting. I was intrigued by this apparent alien culture from within my own city. The black students seemed so much more alive and real to me. This change in our student culture caused me to do some exploring. I developed an interest in certain forms of jazz music. One of the first albums I purchased was Bitches' Brew by Miles Davis, and then A Love Supreme, by John Coltrane. I devoured books by Richard Wright and James Baldwin, and read Malcolm X's autobiography in my high school library. What excited me was the honesty of these writers, expressing something about human nature and the harshness of life that seemed more real to me than the stuff in more fanciful literature. Over the years this appreciation has only grown to include writers such as Frederick Douglass, Iceberg Slim and the filmmaker Oscar Michaux. With The 50th Law I have been able to express this appreciation for black culture more fully. Many of the historical figures in the book, the icons of fearlessness, are African American.in dealing with so much negative energy, they have had to overcome their deepest fears.
I believe something like a book has a spirit to it that stems from something deep within the writer. This draws or repels people to his or her book in ways that cannot be put into words. For me, in the first few pages of a book I can tell something about the writer, his or her attitude, that annoys or delights me. Perhaps my own interest in their culture and something about the spirit from within has drawn African Americans to my books. I will never know but I like to think of it that way.
[End of interview two]
It is Mr. Greene's emphasis on rationale, flexibility, and honesty in his writing that sets him apart from countless humdrum, politically correct business/self-help writers. His books do not sugarcoat the harsh realities of life; they teach thinking adults how to live life to the fullest. For that, we thank Mr. Greene for making the great classics even greater -- by making their principles graspable and thus applicable in the real world where there exist reversals, twists, and turns.
Robert Greene, 45, was born and raised in Los Angeles, California. He has a degree in Classics and can read and speak six languages. Mr. Green lived in Europe for over five years, namely Paris, London, Barcelona, and Rome. He has worked as an editor at various magazines, a translator of French to English, and as a writer in Hollywood.
And of course he has written three significant, best-selling books: The 48 Laws of Power (Viking/Penguin 1998), The Art of Seduction (Viking/Penguin 2001), and The 33 Strategies of War (Viking/Penguin 2006). The 48 Laws of Power has sold close to 800,000 copies in the United States and over 1.5 million worldwide. It has been translated into 19 languages, so far. He currently lives in Los Angeles.
For more information, please visit www.powerseductionandwar.com
Below are our interviews with Mr. Greene. Enjoy!
Sonshi.com: In your most recent book, "The 33 Strategies of War," you referred to Sun Tzu’s Art of War numerous times and stated that Sun Tzu is "perhaps the greatest strategist of them all." What is it about Sun Tzu and his Art of War that you admire?
Greene: If I could simplify the whole game of power and strategy in one equation, it would all hinge on the capacity to see events around you exactly as they are. The closer your mind is to reality, the better your strategies, your responses in life. But we humans have a strange psychological block. Our minds are constantly stopping on one thing, one idea, one experience or emotion. When that happens, we are looking at events through the tunnel of our own biases or negative experiences. We lose contact with reality. Anything living is in a constant state of flux. Nothing stays the same. And so our thoughts must constantly adapt to what is happening around us and never get stuck on this idea, or that way of doing things.
This obsessed me in The 48 Laws. At the end of each chapter I included a Reversal, which basically said that you must look at the Law I have just written from the opposite perspective. I also included laws that seem to contradict each other, because events in life are often at cross currents. I also included a chapter at the end about formlessness, saying essentially that you must ignore everything here I have written, and learn to think for yourself, based on your circumstances.
Which brings me to Sun-tzu. All of the writers I admire most have this capacity to stretch their minds to the shape of what is going on around them. Among those who write of strategy (although I would maintain all writing is about strategy in some way), Sun-tzu stands above all the others. Some of this is cultural. The ideas I expressed in the above first paragraph have deep ties to ancient Chinese philosophy, ideas that are embedded in the language itself. The ancient Chinese way of thinking is completely relational. Nothing is static. Things only have meaning in relation to one another. An event here will never mean the same if it happens there. This is opposed to the Western way of thinking (I am overgeneralizing), which tends to create dualisms and absolutes.
Sun-tzu sees everything in fluid terms. Nothing is absolute, except one simple premise around which everything else revolves: the art of war is winning with minimum bloodshed, and minimum violence. This has a Confucian, ethical element to it, but it is also pure strategy and very Chinese. Winning with violence creates a countercurrent that causes you more problems in the long run. War is inherently more dangerous than life itself (the violence of life), because it is more unpredictable, creates more chaos in its wake. The brake on this is your ability to minimize the chaos, the variables by lowering resistance in your path. Violence and overt aggression only increases resistance.
Sun–tzu is a true strategist, as opposed to the usual type we find who simply regurgitates some preconceived maxims, or the kind of mindless military jargon we see nowadays. He makes you focus on the circumstances, and how you can approach them from angles. What is indirect creates less resistance. Indirection is subtle, like the flowing of the unorthodox out of the orthodox and vice versa. It is what is least expected.
I love Sun-tzu’s brutal language (I am sure it is not given anything close to justice in modern English), and this universe he has created in the remarkably dense 13 chapters. It is like a Zodiac, or the 64 hexagrams of the I Ching. He has created the universal patterns for all conflict. Your mind must raise itself up to this higher stratosphere of strategic thought. From there, you will respond with intelligent action, with sound tactics. It is almost too banal to even express, but those running businesses or wars are rarely strategists, but rather tacticians who know how to disguise themselves. That abstract realm of thought that must preface all intelligent action is missing. If only everyone really read Sun–tzu, really pondered what he said, as opposed to digesting him because it seems cool or warlike.
He is the god of strategists, and all of the rest of us are mere demigods or mortals. (Musashi is one of the highest of the demigods, in my cosmology.) I reread The Art of War every few months, so that I keep his ideas constantly in my mind.
Sonshi.com: Of course Sun Tzu wasn’t the only person you referenced in "33 Strategies." Similar to your previous books, you used an impressive variety of sources to support your rules of warfare. They include Napoleon, Rommel, Musashi, Otto von Bismarck, Clausewitz, Mao Tse-Tung, Scipio Africanus, T.E. Lawrence, Genghis Khan, and Julius Caesar just to name a few. You sprinkle your books with countless quotations from a wide array of literary works. How were you exposed to so many significant works and what method do you use to synthesize their most important concepts into digestible nuggets of wisdom?
Greene: Well, I do a lot of research for each of my books. For WAR, I read over 400 original source materials. I do that because I want my ideas to be grounded in something solid, something timeless. And also, because research excites me. It is a kind of game. Through the library or the Internet, I jump from one book to the other, as one idea pushes me into different directions. I like to begin the research process with a completely open mind. I let the material suggest possibilities and timeless concepts. It is a weird kind of power: to scour 4000 years of military history and find the patterns. I pride myself on making it as open-ended as possible—from ancient Egypt to Desert Storm, from the German General Staff, to Shaka Zulu’s horns, chest and loins.
From this wide net I cast on world history, I make detailed notes, on 4 by 6 cards. (Curiously, I later discovered Napoleon himself was fond of writing on cards and organizing them.) These cards are color-coded and filed based on the subject, the pattern, the strategy it fits. Sometimes a card goes into several categories, and so I am constantly moving them around. Nothing stays in one place. From these cards, I see discern patterns of action, concepts, and pieces of wisdom. I distill the subjects down and down. I started with about 65 strategies, but ended with 33. Nothing good comes out of you unless you love what you are doing, and I love the research process.
Sonshi.com: You are best known for your first book, "The 48 Laws of Power." How is your third book different and what more does it offer? In other words, what motivated you to write "33 Strategies"?
Greene: The 33 Strategies is similar to Power, but also different. The 48 Laws is really about strategy, but to create it I looked at all facets of human endeavor—politics, courtiership, war, entertainment, business, etc. Machiavelli was really the main figure behind the book, although there are others, and Machiavelli’s ideas can be applied to society in general. For the 33 Strategies, I wanted to try something completely novel, something I believe has not been done. I wanted to base all of my ideas on warfare, on the classic military books on strategy. From that foundation, I wanted to establish the key strategies that are used throughout history. And from there, I wanted to see how those ideas have been used in non-military areas, and how they could be further used in that way.
What is radical here is that I am treating warfare not as a specialized realm, which I think is a real mistake, a mistake even Sun-tzu argued against, in his own way. Rather, war is an eminently human endeavor, and success in that realm turns upon elemental human psychology. The ideas expressed in thousands of years in the history of war have tremendous application to all kinds of conflicts and to any competitive realm. For instance, a concept such as the flanking maneuver has its roots in the concept that you should always attack from unexpected angles, at the unprotected sides. This wisdom can be applied to how you think about problems, how you deal with a troublesome colleague at work, how you maneuver against a business rival. I spell out these connections in that particular chapter. I dig under each military strategy to uncover what is at the heart of it.
There are other books out there that try to make connections between war and business. They are generally superficial. I tried to be as thorough and profound as possible. And I am not simply making the connection to business, but also to the social realm, to culture, to personal relationships, on and on. And so, I am finding the connections between a Rommel and a political strategist, or a film director.
I am very much against the compartmentalization of warfare nowadays. It is a highly specialized form of knowledge, full of ridiculous jargon. Both sides—military and civilian—like to cloister themselves off from the other. I think the founding fathers of America had a much different vision, as did Sun–tzu. It is dangerous when the military organizes itself into this bunkered enclave, where they simply talk amongst themselves. There is incredible knowledge in the history of warfare and its strategies, and a kind of wisdom that should be disseminated. I think many of the problems now plaguing the American military stems from its nature as a self–enclosed organization. How can we otherwise explain its weird propensity to disassociate war from politics in the current Iraq campaign?
Sonshi.com: As you mentioned, despite the warfare concepts discussed, any non-military reader can quite easily relate them to the conflicts and competition experienced in his or her daily life. Would it be accurate to say your book’s concepts in power, seduction, and war relate to your own personal experiences and lessons in life as well?
Greene: Very much so. And I think that is why the books are popular. I give you the basic patterns of action in power, seduction, or war, and I let readers make personal connections to events in their lives. A lot of this came from my experience in the work world, and in particular in Hollywood. I tended to see some of my bosses as Cesare Borgias or little Genghis Khans trying to make their way through or around their rivals. I put a lot of my own experiences in the books, but disguised behind stories of famous figures. The stories I tell in the books (each concept is illustrated with stories from history) are designed to teach you lessons. What point is there in living if you are not learning from experience, yours or others?
Sonshi.com: Flavius Vegetius Renatus said, "Let him who desires peace prepare for war." Do you think most people are too focused on trying to obtain peace without first learning to how deal with war?
Greene: Yes. That is a major concept in The 33 Strategies. There is too much conflict avoidance in our culture. Some of this comes from a lot of political correctness that has filtered its way through society. Some of it comes from the importance of always appearing to be on the side of peace, cooperation, fairness to one and all. But life involves constant competition and conflict and how you deal with this will determine your fate in life. Being steeped in the art of war does not make you aggressive, at least not under the banner of Sun–tzu. Rather it makes you smarter, more prudent, better able to handle life’s inevitable struggles with intelligence. I want my book to ground the reader in certain basic principles, so when conflict comes, he or she can take the proper stance, like a swordsman.
Besides, I hate the way war is seen as something inherently brutal and ugly. Yes, much of war nowadays brings out the worst part of our nature. But in war, all kinds of noble human traits have been developed, such as discipline, cohesion, pride. All of life involves a kind of warfare, and a lot of Hindu texts spiritualize warfare into a struggle from within, to gain control over your own beastly nature. People with bumperstickers that say "War is not the answer" are such idiots. Tell that to those countries that found themselves invaded by the Nazis. As Heraclitus wrote, "War is the father of everything. Some it makes slaves, others masters."
Sonshi.com: A criticism of your books is the ideas you propose are "without scruples." Amoral is perhaps a better description. What is your response to these critics?
Greene: Well, I use the word amoral to describe them, as opposed to immoral. I try to look at the various subjects (power, seduction and war) with as dispassionate an eye as possible. This is human nature, I say, and this is how it operates in conflict, or when it is threatened, etc. Sometimes we humans do things that are bad, in order to get power—we hurt others. Sometimes we get power in ways that are not at all harmful. Here is the full panoply of stratagems, manipulations, maneuvers. You can look at them and decide for yourself—"this is too evil for me, but I am glad I know about it." A lot of the book is deliberately defensive, in the sense that it arms you with knowledge, so that you can understand the manipulations of those around you.
For instance, in Hollywood, I was a frequent victim of Law #7: Get others to do the work for you but always take the credit. Half the reason I wrote this chapter was to make people more aware of how this could happen to them and to take defensive measures. I get a lot of feedback from people who have told me how much the book has helped them in this way. They would never use some of the harsher strategies I talk about, but they are very glad to know the games others are playing on them.
I treat readers as adults. Instead of preaching to them about what they should or should not do, I lay it out for them, and I let them decide what is useful and what is not. I cannot deny there are people out there who might use these ideas for bad purposes, but what are you going to do? I think it is better to reveal the power game in all of its amoral reality and let happen what happens.
I also make the point, in the WAR book (and also in POWER) that power has traditionally been something reserved for elites. Elites have always objected to knowledge being given to the masses. Military strategy is the most elite form of knowledge that there is. Soldiers were taught tactics. It was too dangerous to allow them to get their hands on books on strategy. They could use this valuable information to foment revolution. People still think the same way, but for different reasons. I want a level playing field and everyone to be armed with the art of war.
My books have been very popular in the African-American community. They appreciate knowing how people have used power in the past, often against them. They want to know how the game is played, in as realistic a fashion as possible. They want the truth. I find those who rail against my books often have a lot of personal issues, and are generally people who can be classified as quite manipulative, in the passive aggressive mode.
Sonshi.com: One of the most outstanding concepts you wrote about in "33 Strategies" was number 15, "Control the Dynamic," a strategy that does not have a reversal. Central to Sun Tzu’s Art of War is always being active and taking a proactive stance: from planning ahead in the temple to initiating the time and place of battle. In your opinion, of the 33 strategies, which one do you think applies most often in people’s lives?
Greene: It depends on your circumstances. It’s all relative. If you are dealing with stressful situations, chapter three on maintaining your presence of mind would be particularly helpful, as would chapter 4 if you find it hard to motivate yourself. Chapters 5 and 6 are particularly relevant to leaders of any group. I make the point that structure is strategy—how you organize your group will determine its mobility, efficiency, morale, etc. Chapter 8 is very important—it is about operating with economy, finding the perfect level between your means and your ends. The center of gravity chapter is critical for attacking any problem. But I suppose if I had to elevate one chapter above the others, it is the longest one in the book—chapter 12, on Grand Strategy. This to me is the apex of strategic thought—the ability to think in terms of a campaign, not battles. This has great relevance to daily life.
I make the point that most of us live in what I call tactical hell. We are constantly reacting to what others give us, managing the battles that confront us day in and day out. We rarely get control. Our minds become dominated by tactical thinking. We can only focus on details. We argue and nitpick about this battle or that battle. It is hell.
Strategy is a kind of mental ladder you climb to get above these battles, gain some perspective and plot your moves. It is a mental purgatory. Grand strategy is simply this idea taken further—gaining a perspective that encompasses months or years. It is incredibly liberating and powerful when you have clear idea of where you want to be in five years, or can focus on what you see as your destiny in life. It helps you manage your daily decisions. "It is not important I fight this battle because it does not serve my overall goals." On and on.
Grand strategy is heaven, one we rarely reach, but must always aim for. It is the ultimate form of rationality. The word is misused nowadays, and I try to correct this in the chapter. I wish everyone would read it. And it is my modest homage to the spirit of Sun-tzu.
[End of interview one]
Sonshi.com: Last time you were here, you introduced our readers to your book "33 Strategies of War" and of course discussed the "48 Laws of Power." Now you have another hard-hitting book called "The 50th Law" (available September 8, 2009), and it's a collaborative effort with rapper Curtis Jackson, aka 50 Cent. Would you mind giving us the background on the book's title?
Greene: The book is a blending of two disparate worlds.the writer and the hustler. The 50 in the title obviously refers to Fifty Cent, and the Law refers to my book, The 48 Laws of Power.
In talking to Fifty and observing him in action, I had the idea that I wanted to get at the essence of his success, why he was able to emerge from one of the most hopeless corners of America and reach the top. Most people are crushed by such circumstances, but he wasn't.
At one point in our discussions, I had the realization that it was his fearlessness that elevated him above his peers. Most people remain tied to the same circle of actions because they are deeply afraid of change, of something unfamiliar. This keeps them locked in a kind of invisible prison of their own making. Because of Fifty's experiences and something in his character, he learned to move past the deepest fears that inhibit most of us. He learned to not be afraid of being alone (he never knew his father and his mother was murdered when he was eight), and to develop self.reliance. He taught himself to not be afraid of change, to leave the hustling world at the age of 20 and enter with full force into music. He found a way to embrace adversity and reverse it into power. Overcoming the fear of death, he feels he has nothing to lose by taking risks. This fearlessness on his part gives him a much greater range of action than others and translates into freedom and power.
In reflecting on the research in my other books, I realized that almost all powerful people in history share this quality.an adventurous and fearless spirit. It is in fact the foundation of any kind of success in this world. You could have a lot of money at your fingertips, the finest education and intellectual knowledge, but if you are governed by fear none of that will matter. You will remain tied to dead ideas and stale strategies. You will not be able to adapt. You will lose what you have. You cannot master the 48 Laws until you have gained control over yourself, confronted and overcome your fears. That is the essence of the 50th Law.
Sonshi.com: You compared your collaboration with 50 Cent to the role that Niccolo Machiavelli played while analyzing Cesare Borgia (and others involved in Florentine politics and military affairs) in writing The Prince. That leads us to ask these two questions: What is 50 Cent's intent in publishing "The 50th Law"? What is your intent?
Greene: Fifty is a master at the 48 Laws, a living, breathing example of the types I analyzed in the book. He lives by the precept .conceal your intentions,. so I can never be quite sure what his intent might be in doing this book. But I will hazard a guess: He is a very intelligent, thoughtful person as well as a master strategist. He also has his flaws as any human does. As a celebrity, he finds himself locked into this simplified character he has to portray for the public.the thuggish, aggressive rapper. The public does not see the other dimensions. After several years of this, he has become tired of playing this role. He has the desire to reveal the more reflective side of his personality and the lessons he has learned in life. It was a relief for him to be able to talk about larger issues and his philosophy, rather than answering the same boring questions about his life as a celebrity. Also, such this book will help glean his image, cast him in a new light and make people take him more seriously. Of course, this is all speculation on my part.
As for me: Fifty had originally approached me to do this book and at first I was hesitant. I like to work on my own, without any hindrances from others. Also, I am not interested in celebrity culture; I am more intrigued by the actions of everyday people than the puffery surrounding stars. But when I met him I could see he was different. We shared the same interest in power and strategy. He was surprisingly normal and down to earth. And the more I began to contemplate doing the book, the more I became excited by a simple idea. My other books involved massive amounts of research and thinking, but it was all in my head. Fifty is a master practitioner of the game and I could study him in action.
Also, I became intrigued with the idea of moving into a world.that of the urban hustler.that was so different from mine. It would be an exciting task to bring that world alive, and show how hustling is in fact a life skill, a very human attribute. I believe that for both of us this book was a way to challenge ourselves and try something different. The 50th Law might fail, who knows, but we can honestly say no one has really attempted anything quite like it.
Sonshi.com: When we saw a video interview with 50 Cent on BusinessWeek, we were blown away by his rather quiet and gentle demeanor. Perhaps we were expecting the tough guy image portrayed by many rappers. (For the reader's benefit, 50 Cent recently profited $100 million from his investment in Glaceau, the company that makes VitaminWater.) From what you observed, how is 50 Cent's mindset different from successful businesspeople in traditional industries, if indeed the mindset is different?
Greene: People generally have their mindset formed by a mix of their early experiences in life and their formal education. People at the top in business most often come from relatively similar backgrounds of privilege and entitlement. If they do come from a different culture or from poverty, their attitude is quickly shaped and altered around them. The few who start out as adventurous entrepreneurs are under tremendous pressure to conform to the usual patterns of action, particularly if they have success and their business grows. They succumb to all of the conventions in place, many of which are based on models from decades past, or from certain ideas promoted in business schools.
Fifty has no formal education. His mind was formed on the streets, as a hustler. The hustler is a character that I analyze in great depth in the book. Hustlers learn early on to make the most of what they have. They don't wait for better resources or more gadgetry. They take everything at their fingertips and find ways to transform such things into money and power. They are not afraid of adversity or risk; they are trained early on to deal with chaotic situations and exploit them. They also learn to get as close as possible to their customer base, to have a great feel for what the public desires. For Fifty, hustling on the streets served as his MBA.
We make the case in the book that we are entering a new world order. You can throw out the old rules and conventions. In fact, the world is coming to resemble the environment of southside Queens during the crack epidemic.chaotic and highly competitive. In the crack cocaine era, the old large.scale gang networks that were very hierarchical could not meet the demand of their customers, and so corner entrepreneurs entered the fray. Those who could think on their feet and not be tied down by worn.out ideas were the ones who thrived. They exploited the apparent disorder for power by being fluid and fast.
The streets had such a strong influence on Fifty that he was able to withstand the leveling.down impact of the business world. He had learned that his power came from being different, from moving in his own lane.a hustler expression. He would not grow conservative or do things the traditional way. He would break the mold. This meant, like any hustler, experimenting with different ventures, not afraid if one or two of them failed. It meant taking risks, going in directions that were not predictable. It meant exploiting changes in the music business instead of fighting them. Embracing the chaos of the times. This makes him a very powerful figure.what Machiavelli would term as the New Prince, the man who can move beyond his fixed nature and truly adapt to circumstance. People in business are maddeningly conventional. They think that because something worked for someone else, at a different time, it will work for them. This is a great hindrance to any kind of creativity. To the extent that Fifty is able to stay true to his hustler past, he will continue to do well in circumstances that make others flounder.
Sonshi.com: If people understand, study, and take action on "The 50th Law" how do you think they will see their life change (once they conquer their fears)? In other words, how will it make their lives better?
Greene: The first thing the book will do is to make people aware of how deeply their lives are governed by fear. When you stay at a job or a relationship, despite the fact you are not too happy there, you will often justify this action by telling yourself you have a plan, or you will get a promotion soon, or you need to just wait, or you are being loyal. In fact, it is hidden fear that is governing these choices and these fears become a habit. They inhibit your mobility in life. You become afraid of doing things that will displease other people, even though you cannot gain power in this world without breaking a few eggs. You don't take on challenges because you are afraid of failure, but you cannot learn anything unless you are willing to fail. You come to depend on other people, afraid to do things alone. The book will make you aware of the problem, which is half of the solution. You cannot go through life avoiding your fears. One day something bad will happen and you will not have the ability to cope or attack the situation, because you only know how to retreat.
Once aware of the problem, the book will help you explore that realm beyond fear. You need to confront what makes you afraid. If you are afraid of conflict and battle, you need to force yourself to deal with this instead of running away. Each time you move past a fear, you turn a negative into a positive. For instance, if you overcome the fear of being alone, you become self.reliant and entrepreneurial. If you move past the fear of being criticized, you gain the power of using people's feedback to make your work more alive. If you get past your fear of boredom and drudge work, you become disciplined. If you overcome your fear of death, nothing can really shake you. The book will give you countless ideas on how to do this, many inspired by those in history who used such strategies.
You can never get rid of all of your fears. Some are necessary and a part of life. But most of our fears are illusory, based on risks or threats that exist only in our minds. Such fears constrain and make us miserable. The feeling of moving past a particular fear is one of liberation and freedom. You are willing to explore and be open to life. The book cannot make you move in that direction, but perhaps inspire you. And it is our hope it will have such an effect.
Sonshi.com: We often hear that Wall Street is governed by greed and fear -- two opposing emotional extremes that somehow keep the financial markets delicately balanced, adjusting to the natural societal forces of supply and demand. You probably know where we are going with this. Are there risks, detrimental to society perhaps, if people are truly without fear?
Greene: I suppose what you are saying is that it was people on Wall Street, operating without fear of the consequences of their greedy actions, who created the mess that we are in. In that argument, such people need to have more fear, not less. But let us look at this more closely.
Greed stems from impatience. A greedy person does not have the discipline or the faith to spend years accumulating knowledge, power and money. They want it all now. They cannot think long.term, only months ahead. As we describe this phenomenon in chapter 8 of The 50th Law, such impatience is in fact a form of hidden fear. To make anything that lasts or that is solid requires learning the craft, spending years at it, and patiently building up a power base. There are no real shortcuts. What comes fast, leaves fast. When you succumb to greed and impatience, you really have a fear of process, of sacrificing something in the short.term for long.term gain. That is the real fear governing those on Wall Street who respond so nervously to the quarterly report. If they were to have more of such fear, it would only make them more impatient and grasping for things in the present.
This is a tremendous problem in our culture. We have become used to everything coming to us with tremendous speed and ease. We can get whatever food we want in record time. We can Google for some bit of information, not having to resort to books or libraries. We can use our credit cards to pretend we have the money that is not there. It is a culture where discipline and patience is almost impossible to develop. From my relative inside position in the business world, I see this speed and impatience infecting the smartest executives and causing them to take all kinds of foolish actions. The pressure also comes from the bottom.shareholders are nervous and want instant results, growth at any cost.
Basically we have a misconception about fearlessness. It does not mean being aggressive, bold and even reckless. It means having self.control and balance. People who are fearless have a kind of mental center of gravity.they are not swayed by the pressures or panicky actions of others around them. They have the strength of mind to look years down the road and take the right action. If you think that does not require fearlessness, try being the CEO or president of the United States and withstand the intense pressures to produce results now, no matter the long.term consequences.
Sonshi.com: Here's a question we neglected to ask last time. Why do you think 50 Cent and other rapper and hip hop artists are so drawn to "The 48 Laws of Power," and which one of the 48 laws did many of them tell you they relate to the most?
Greene: A lot of it was luck and timing. The 48 Laws came out at a time when many hip hop artists were becoming aware of the real dynamic at play in the music industry: they do all of the work, but the major labels basically control the fruits of their labor. They may be paid well, but in the end they have no ownership and when the industry decides they are no longer so hot, they are discarded as quickly as they were hyped. For decades, black musicians have been the most exploited of all. But to gain power in the music industry, as anywhere else, you can't simply get angry, protest, or organize. You have to be strategic. You have to understand the intense political games going on. You have to be aware of how they seduce you with money and perks and attention, blinding you to the power realities.
Many of these rappers came from the streets. They have a sense of the game and how manipulative people can be, but their ideas are not organized or coherent enough. The book came out at just the moment when they were looking to have more ownership, more control. The 48 Laws articulated ideas they had felt or intuited, but in a way they could use in their daily business interactions. They appreciated the honesty in the book.revealing the manipulative tricks people have used for centuries, often against African Americans. (Power until recently has been a white man's game in this country.) The book's popularity gained some momentum as a few of the artists such as Jay-Z publicized their use of the book, but well before then it was in the hands of their managers who spread the word among themselves.
Fifty uses many of the laws. He crushes his enemies totally. He conceals his intentions. He enters action with boldness. He talks about using such laws. But the one he mentioned the most to me and that I have seen in action is Law 21, Play a Sucker to Catch a Sucker. He makes it seem that he is just another violent rapper, aggressive but dumb. This blinds people to his clever maneuvers and manipulations.
Nas has quoted a few laws in some of his songs. Jay-Z mentioned being influenced by Law 18, Do not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself. I think more than specific laws, however, these rappers relate to the overall world depicted in the book, which matches the dog.eat.dog reality of the music business.
Sonshi.com: You mentioned that even in Los Angeles, where you live, people tend to gravitate toward other people like themselves, whether on race, social status, etc. Conversely, you mentioned you like to go out of your way to meet and learn from people from varying backgrounds because they tend to have different perspectives, without which your old ways of thinking never get challenged. Along those same lines, we're fairly certain it has crossed your mind at least once how extraordinary that the black community, quite different from the one you grew up in, was drawn to you and your work. For example, how Busta Rhymes and Kanye West treasure your words and how 50 Cent reached out to you. Perhaps there's karma and natural reciprocity going on here? Are we making too much of this? What are your thoughts?
Greene: I have always been drawn to other cultures and other ways of thinking. For me it is a kind of therapy and way to expand my contact with reality. We are not aware of this happening, but because we tend to associate with our own kind, our world becomes narrower and narrower as we get older. We live among conventions and symbols that we mistake for reality. Our thoughts tend to revolve around these conventions, to follow the same paths over and over. When we travel, if we have an open spirit, we become aware of how deeply asleep we are. There are other ways of looking at the world, other ways of thinking and experiencing. I have brought this into my life by living in other cultures, reading books in other languages and immersing myself in the ideas of people who think differently.
One of my first experiences on this plane was in junior high school in Los Angeles. Suddenly, one day, black students from the inner city were bussed into our school and for me this was very exciting. I was intrigued by this apparent alien culture from within my own city. The black students seemed so much more alive and real to me. This change in our student culture caused me to do some exploring. I developed an interest in certain forms of jazz music. One of the first albums I purchased was Bitches' Brew by Miles Davis, and then A Love Supreme, by John Coltrane. I devoured books by Richard Wright and James Baldwin, and read Malcolm X's autobiography in my high school library. What excited me was the honesty of these writers, expressing something about human nature and the harshness of life that seemed more real to me than the stuff in more fanciful literature. Over the years this appreciation has only grown to include writers such as Frederick Douglass, Iceberg Slim and the filmmaker Oscar Michaux. With The 50th Law I have been able to express this appreciation for black culture more fully. Many of the historical figures in the book, the icons of fearlessness, are African American.in dealing with so much negative energy, they have had to overcome their deepest fears.
I believe something like a book has a spirit to it that stems from something deep within the writer. This draws or repels people to his or her book in ways that cannot be put into words. For me, in the first few pages of a book I can tell something about the writer, his or her attitude, that annoys or delights me. Perhaps my own interest in their culture and something about the spirit from within has drawn African Americans to my books. I will never know but I like to think of it that way.
[End of interview two]