Victor Mair interview
"In general, the Sun Zi's approach to warfare is motivated by the desire to achieve practical results (in simplest terms, victory over one's opponent), not by abstract principles, historical considerations, or spiritual qualms." Victor Mair |
In the specialized world of The Art of War, the most recognizable sinologist is currently Lionel Giles, who translated Sun Tzu's masterpiece in 1910. Since Giles's translation has become public domain, his name is ubiquitous both online and offline in countless repackaged presentations and books -- but all containing the same stale, outdated material.
So when you compare Lionel Giles to modern-day sinologist Dr. Victor H. Mair, you might as well be comparing Henry Ford to Enzo Ferrari. While Giles helped start the ball rolling, Mair advances knowledge of Chinese classics like The Art of War to their furthest limits. His 2007 scholarly book, The Art of War: Sun Zi's Military Methods (published by Columbia University Press), provides not only an accurate translation of The Art of War but also the most recent research into its origin.
With a knack for Sinitic etymology, Sinitic lexicography, and the origins and evolution of Chinese script, Victor Mair pushed for Chinese language reforms in exceptional efforts such as how Chinese dictionaries should be best arranged. Dr. Mair's expertise allows him to break new ground in his Art of War translation and book which contains bold and original data, analyses, and theories. Like a scientist, he methodically asserts evidences to challenge our current knowledge and leaves us with renewed scholarship and appreciation for The Art of War.
Victor Mair is a professor of Chinese language and literature at the University of Pennsylvania. He graduated from Dartmouth College (where he was captain of the Dartmouth basketball team and tasked to guard Bill Bradley from Princeton), served in the Peace Corps in Nepal, and holds a master's degree from University of London and a Ph.D. from Harvard University. He has taught at Kyoto University in Japan and at Sichuan University in China.
For us at Sonshi.com, the interview with Professor Mair was most enlightening, which was very similar to our experience reading The Art of War: Sun Zi's Military Methods. Our recommendation? Read on below, and be sure to buy his book. You won't regret owning this refreshing, authoritative, and well-researched edition.
Sonshi.com: With so many translations of The Art of War available, why should readers consider your new translation?
Mair: First of all, whenever I translate an ancient Chinese text, I always make a strenuous effort, not only to be as accurate as possible, but to convey in English a sense of the style and structure of the original. In other words, my translations may be considered more literarily sensitive and nuanced than most of the other translations that are available. The fact that I was an English major in college before becoming a Sinologist has actually been a great boon in enabling me to express both the content and the form of ancient Chinese texts precisely and felicitously. This is as true of my translation of the Sun Zi as it is of the other Chinese texts I have worked on. If you look at my translation of the Sun Zi and compare it to virtually any other that has been produced, you will immediately see that it has a quite different appearance on the page. When you start to read my translation of the Sun Zi, right away you will notice that the text has a particular rhythm and cadence of its own. You will be able to gain a distinct appreciation of the uniqueness of the Chinese text that is not accessible through any other English translation. I even strive to reproduce in English some of the phonetic and poetic qualities of the original.
Aside from crafting my English translation with the utmost care, I also enjoyed the opportunity to do extensive research on the Sun Zi and write a substantial introduction. In the introduction to the Columbia University Press translation, I have made some completely new contributions to Sun Zi studies. Among these are pointing out and analyzing exactly how the Sun Zi reflects a Taoistic approach to war. I have also shown how technological factors, especially iron metallurgy, were key factors in the emergence of the military milieu in which the Sun Zi materialized. Finally, a sort of trademark of my scholarship, I not only place the Sun Zi securely in Chinese history, I also relate it to developments that were occurring elsewhere in Eurasia just before and during the period when it grew up. Additional novel aspects of my introduction and notes will be discussed in my answers to your other questions below.
Sonshi.com: We wanted to hear your personal answer to our question above, but in our opinion, you have produced the most significant scholarly work on The Art of War since the 1990s. For example, you boldly asserted that Sun Tzu and Sun Pin might very well be the same person, and you backed your assertion with solid evidence in your book's Introduction. Sun Tzu "Master Sun" does indeed sound much more respectable than Sun Pin "knee-capped Sun." Why do you think past scholars have overlooked this or at least didn't take it seriously?
Mair: Thank you very much for your kind assessment of my work. Coming from a site that is noted for its serious attention to the entire range of Sun Zi studies, your positive reaction to my book means a lot to me.
I suppose that one of the reasons I was able to make the breakthroughs that I have achieved in my Sun Zi is that, by nature, I have a critical, skeptical mind. I was born to be a scientist, but -- for various personal reasons that I won't go into here -- I ended up becoming a humanist. So, I think that -- above all -- it was my innately scientific spirit that enabled me to venture into areas of the Sun Zi that other scholars may not even have contemplated.
Beyond my own qualifications and predispositions, however, I must acknowledge the great debt that I owe to the work of the Danish scholar, Jens Østergård Petersen, who provided the raw data concerning the relationship between Sun Zi and Sun Pin/Bin that enabled me to formulate my own hypothesis concerning them. Of course, before I was able to do that, I had to seek out Dr. Petersen's work, read it conscientiously, and assimilate it thoroughly.
Sonshi.com: Another fascinating area you researched was the dates of when each chapter of The Art of War was written. For instance, the ninth chapter was likely written in 345 BCE and the thirteenth chapter in 272 BCE. This suggests many authors. Why do you believe past scribes decided to name only "Sun Tzu" the author?
Mair: Here, as I did in the book, I must give credit to the marvelous, awe-inspiring research of E. Bruce Brooks and A. Taeko Brooks. Their investigations over the last two decades and more have demonstrated that, not only the Sun Zi, but essentially all of the other pre-Qin texts that are ascribed to individual "masters" (zi / tzu), such as the Mo Zi, the Lao Zi, and the Zhuang Zi, are the products of an accretional process of political and intellectual debate. As to why, in the particular case we are discussing, the scribes and editors who were responsible for putting together and transmitting the text known as the Sun Zi decided to use the name Sun Zi ("Master Sun") to represent the collective or composite authorship of this classic, I would say that -- already by the time of its compilation -- the surname Sun had taken on an almost hallowed cachet as the font of military wisdom.
Sonshi.com: Yet another area you looked into was the use of the "gu" character or "therefore." It is used 1.5 percent of the time, compared with much lower usage in other similar Chinese works. The striking point you made was that "over half of the succeeding clauses in the Sun Zi manifestly do not follow from the preceding clauses" whenever "gu" was used. Furthermore, you asserted in many places The Art of War was "loosely cobbled" together. Why do you think past scribes didn't correct this problem?
Mair: An excellent question! The best answer I can give is that it was the very nature of the Sun Zi to be cumulative. By the time the text had taken on a critical mass and definable shape, sometime after the first quarter of the 3rd c. BC, it had already acquired the status of an authoritative source for tactics and strategy. Although later thinkers did sometimes tinker with the text, by the time they received it, the Sun Zi had -- for all intents and purposes -- become a classic, and a classic is something that one does not knowingly or lightly attempt to improve.
The situation with the Sun Zi is quite comparable to that which pertains to the Bible. Critical scholarship has long been aware of authorial complexities surrounding the scriptures, but it is only in modern times that systematic analysis of the entire Bible has been thinkable -- perhaps because scholars nowadays are less constrained by the sacred authority of the past than heretofore.
Sonshi.com: You are the editor and founder of the Sino-Platonic Papers, an academic journal that examines diverse aspects of Chinese language, and have led expeditions in Eastern Central Asia, which resulted in numerous publications and films. With your diverse background and experience, why do you think The Art of War became so popular throughout the world (as compared to other similar Chinese works)?
Mair: There are many reasons why the Sun Zi became the dominant military classic of ancient China and has extended its influence throughout the world into modern times. Here I'll just rattle off a few of the operative factors that come to my mind without much reflection:
1. among its potential competitors it was the first out of the chute;
2. it was of a sufficient size to have considerable weight, but not so long that it would tax the memory;
3. very much like the Tao Te Ching, it is full of gnomic wisdom that is vague enough to be applied in a wide variety of different contexts, yet specific enough to afford practical guidance; 4. overall, it espouses a point of view pertaining to the resolution of conflict that has arguable merit.
Sonshi.com: The Art of War is required reading for all US Marine officers and current US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates quoted Sun Zi on at least two occasions last year in front of Congress, stating it contains concepts applicable to today's US military policy. What are your thoughts on the modern applicability of this ancient Chinese text?
Mair: This is a text that is over two thousand years old, so naturally there are obvious aspects of the Sun Zi that are no longer relevant to today's world. On the other hand, there are also aspects of the work that are ageless, such as the injunction to know yourself and know your enemy.
Sonshi.com: Other than what we discussed, what do you think is the most misunderstood verse or idea in The Art of War by readers?
Mair: That's a difficult question. After giving it some thought, however, I would say that the most poorly understood idea in the Sun Zi is that expressed in the celebrated statement that "Warfare is a way of deception." Too many people think that this gives a license to lie. I would suggest, rather, that what Sun Zi was getting at here is not sheer mendacity, but the need for the general to conceal from the enemy his true intentions. The skilled general (or athlete, businessman, etc.) should lead his opponent into believing that he will surely adopt a certain course of action or movement, then surprise the daylights out of him by executing a totally different tack.
[End of interview]
So when you compare Lionel Giles to modern-day sinologist Dr. Victor H. Mair, you might as well be comparing Henry Ford to Enzo Ferrari. While Giles helped start the ball rolling, Mair advances knowledge of Chinese classics like The Art of War to their furthest limits. His 2007 scholarly book, The Art of War: Sun Zi's Military Methods (published by Columbia University Press), provides not only an accurate translation of The Art of War but also the most recent research into its origin.
With a knack for Sinitic etymology, Sinitic lexicography, and the origins and evolution of Chinese script, Victor Mair pushed for Chinese language reforms in exceptional efforts such as how Chinese dictionaries should be best arranged. Dr. Mair's expertise allows him to break new ground in his Art of War translation and book which contains bold and original data, analyses, and theories. Like a scientist, he methodically asserts evidences to challenge our current knowledge and leaves us with renewed scholarship and appreciation for The Art of War.
Victor Mair is a professor of Chinese language and literature at the University of Pennsylvania. He graduated from Dartmouth College (where he was captain of the Dartmouth basketball team and tasked to guard Bill Bradley from Princeton), served in the Peace Corps in Nepal, and holds a master's degree from University of London and a Ph.D. from Harvard University. He has taught at Kyoto University in Japan and at Sichuan University in China.
For us at Sonshi.com, the interview with Professor Mair was most enlightening, which was very similar to our experience reading The Art of War: Sun Zi's Military Methods. Our recommendation? Read on below, and be sure to buy his book. You won't regret owning this refreshing, authoritative, and well-researched edition.
Sonshi.com: With so many translations of The Art of War available, why should readers consider your new translation?
Mair: First of all, whenever I translate an ancient Chinese text, I always make a strenuous effort, not only to be as accurate as possible, but to convey in English a sense of the style and structure of the original. In other words, my translations may be considered more literarily sensitive and nuanced than most of the other translations that are available. The fact that I was an English major in college before becoming a Sinologist has actually been a great boon in enabling me to express both the content and the form of ancient Chinese texts precisely and felicitously. This is as true of my translation of the Sun Zi as it is of the other Chinese texts I have worked on. If you look at my translation of the Sun Zi and compare it to virtually any other that has been produced, you will immediately see that it has a quite different appearance on the page. When you start to read my translation of the Sun Zi, right away you will notice that the text has a particular rhythm and cadence of its own. You will be able to gain a distinct appreciation of the uniqueness of the Chinese text that is not accessible through any other English translation. I even strive to reproduce in English some of the phonetic and poetic qualities of the original.
Aside from crafting my English translation with the utmost care, I also enjoyed the opportunity to do extensive research on the Sun Zi and write a substantial introduction. In the introduction to the Columbia University Press translation, I have made some completely new contributions to Sun Zi studies. Among these are pointing out and analyzing exactly how the Sun Zi reflects a Taoistic approach to war. I have also shown how technological factors, especially iron metallurgy, were key factors in the emergence of the military milieu in which the Sun Zi materialized. Finally, a sort of trademark of my scholarship, I not only place the Sun Zi securely in Chinese history, I also relate it to developments that were occurring elsewhere in Eurasia just before and during the period when it grew up. Additional novel aspects of my introduction and notes will be discussed in my answers to your other questions below.
Sonshi.com: We wanted to hear your personal answer to our question above, but in our opinion, you have produced the most significant scholarly work on The Art of War since the 1990s. For example, you boldly asserted that Sun Tzu and Sun Pin might very well be the same person, and you backed your assertion with solid evidence in your book's Introduction. Sun Tzu "Master Sun" does indeed sound much more respectable than Sun Pin "knee-capped Sun." Why do you think past scholars have overlooked this or at least didn't take it seriously?
Mair: Thank you very much for your kind assessment of my work. Coming from a site that is noted for its serious attention to the entire range of Sun Zi studies, your positive reaction to my book means a lot to me.
I suppose that one of the reasons I was able to make the breakthroughs that I have achieved in my Sun Zi is that, by nature, I have a critical, skeptical mind. I was born to be a scientist, but -- for various personal reasons that I won't go into here -- I ended up becoming a humanist. So, I think that -- above all -- it was my innately scientific spirit that enabled me to venture into areas of the Sun Zi that other scholars may not even have contemplated.
Beyond my own qualifications and predispositions, however, I must acknowledge the great debt that I owe to the work of the Danish scholar, Jens Østergård Petersen, who provided the raw data concerning the relationship between Sun Zi and Sun Pin/Bin that enabled me to formulate my own hypothesis concerning them. Of course, before I was able to do that, I had to seek out Dr. Petersen's work, read it conscientiously, and assimilate it thoroughly.
Sonshi.com: Another fascinating area you researched was the dates of when each chapter of The Art of War was written. For instance, the ninth chapter was likely written in 345 BCE and the thirteenth chapter in 272 BCE. This suggests many authors. Why do you believe past scribes decided to name only "Sun Tzu" the author?
Mair: Here, as I did in the book, I must give credit to the marvelous, awe-inspiring research of E. Bruce Brooks and A. Taeko Brooks. Their investigations over the last two decades and more have demonstrated that, not only the Sun Zi, but essentially all of the other pre-Qin texts that are ascribed to individual "masters" (zi / tzu), such as the Mo Zi, the Lao Zi, and the Zhuang Zi, are the products of an accretional process of political and intellectual debate. As to why, in the particular case we are discussing, the scribes and editors who were responsible for putting together and transmitting the text known as the Sun Zi decided to use the name Sun Zi ("Master Sun") to represent the collective or composite authorship of this classic, I would say that -- already by the time of its compilation -- the surname Sun had taken on an almost hallowed cachet as the font of military wisdom.
Sonshi.com: Yet another area you looked into was the use of the "gu" character or "therefore." It is used 1.5 percent of the time, compared with much lower usage in other similar Chinese works. The striking point you made was that "over half of the succeeding clauses in the Sun Zi manifestly do not follow from the preceding clauses" whenever "gu" was used. Furthermore, you asserted in many places The Art of War was "loosely cobbled" together. Why do you think past scribes didn't correct this problem?
Mair: An excellent question! The best answer I can give is that it was the very nature of the Sun Zi to be cumulative. By the time the text had taken on a critical mass and definable shape, sometime after the first quarter of the 3rd c. BC, it had already acquired the status of an authoritative source for tactics and strategy. Although later thinkers did sometimes tinker with the text, by the time they received it, the Sun Zi had -- for all intents and purposes -- become a classic, and a classic is something that one does not knowingly or lightly attempt to improve.
The situation with the Sun Zi is quite comparable to that which pertains to the Bible. Critical scholarship has long been aware of authorial complexities surrounding the scriptures, but it is only in modern times that systematic analysis of the entire Bible has been thinkable -- perhaps because scholars nowadays are less constrained by the sacred authority of the past than heretofore.
Sonshi.com: You are the editor and founder of the Sino-Platonic Papers, an academic journal that examines diverse aspects of Chinese language, and have led expeditions in Eastern Central Asia, which resulted in numerous publications and films. With your diverse background and experience, why do you think The Art of War became so popular throughout the world (as compared to other similar Chinese works)?
Mair: There are many reasons why the Sun Zi became the dominant military classic of ancient China and has extended its influence throughout the world into modern times. Here I'll just rattle off a few of the operative factors that come to my mind without much reflection:
1. among its potential competitors it was the first out of the chute;
2. it was of a sufficient size to have considerable weight, but not so long that it would tax the memory;
3. very much like the Tao Te Ching, it is full of gnomic wisdom that is vague enough to be applied in a wide variety of different contexts, yet specific enough to afford practical guidance; 4. overall, it espouses a point of view pertaining to the resolution of conflict that has arguable merit.
Sonshi.com: The Art of War is required reading for all US Marine officers and current US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates quoted Sun Zi on at least two occasions last year in front of Congress, stating it contains concepts applicable to today's US military policy. What are your thoughts on the modern applicability of this ancient Chinese text?
Mair: This is a text that is over two thousand years old, so naturally there are obvious aspects of the Sun Zi that are no longer relevant to today's world. On the other hand, there are also aspects of the work that are ageless, such as the injunction to know yourself and know your enemy.
Sonshi.com: Other than what we discussed, what do you think is the most misunderstood verse or idea in The Art of War by readers?
Mair: That's a difficult question. After giving it some thought, however, I would say that the most poorly understood idea in the Sun Zi is that expressed in the celebrated statement that "Warfare is a way of deception." Too many people think that this gives a license to lie. I would suggest, rather, that what Sun Zi was getting at here is not sheer mendacity, but the need for the general to conceal from the enemy his true intentions. The skilled general (or athlete, businessman, etc.) should lead his opponent into believing that he will surely adopt a certain course of action or movement, then surprise the daylights out of him by executing a totally different tack.
[End of interview]